Here's the e-mail I just got back from http://www.dptune.com/ after reading about it on US forum http://forum.concours.org/index.php?topic=85957.0
Andy, thanks for the email!
On the GTR our reflash adds quite a bit of tq down low, in addition to the top end punch of the added whp. Gains are 10-14 whp . Not as great as the zx14, but the cams are "softer" on the GTR.But the huge gain is to rideablity, as this makes the bike a riot to ride.
We charge 400.00 usd for the reflash, and shipping looks to be about 100.00 if we go overnight, or 60 via parcel post(4-5 days)
We Change almost all of the fuel, timing and throttle tables, as well as a great deal of things we don't talk about
Yes the traction controls work as stock, no difference. The Eco mode works better due to the added timing
We do indeed adjust the secondary plates, and the ramp rate
Our ship to address is;
Dynotronics,Inc
1303 Potthast Dr
New Braunfels,Texas, 78130
678.488.1011
Please let me know if there is anything else I can answer for you!
Had a read of the forum you linked too. It makes for some interesting reading and I await with bated breath the dyno results. an .cu flash is something I would consider, a plug in module for a diesel mondeo cost around £400 so $400 and the shipping on top seems fairly reasonable. The buy must be pretty confident to offer money back guarantee too
Apparently you can buy the equipment to reprogram the ecu. Might be worth doing if a lot of us are planning on doing this. I elk be once I yippee my bike
You will probably need to fit Lambda sensor bypass units as well as US bikes don't have them (at least on the 08/09).
Rather than go with a Power Commander and remove the secondary flies I would go this route, but for now, for me 160Bhp is more than adequate.
Reading the US forum and answers from the ecu flash man, all that is needed is the ecu flash and away you go no bypasses or extra bits just plug and go. Would be interesting to see overall costs to get a mass update done
Well I'm in Newcastle if anyone wants to share a jiffy bag :-)
Quote from: Boomer on May 09, 2011, 03:47:42 PM
You will probably need to fit Lambda sensor bypass units as well as US bikes don't have them (at least on the 08/09).
Rather than go with a Power Commander and remove the secondary flies I would go this route, but for now, for me 160Bhp is more than adequate.
Are you sure the secondary flies need to be removed? On our previous GTR I noticed a significant difference in low down grunt with just the PC and Dyno so didn't touch the flies.
Kevin
PC V with '09 map and although I noticed a difference in the low end, the flies made a massive difference.
I should go and get a custom map put on mine I guess
Removing the flies gives a lot more low rpm torque in 1st to 3rd and a noticable difference in 4th.
The difference in 1st to 3rd has been measured to be as much as 22lbft.
One of the yanks took 0.6 secs off his standing quarter time just removing the flies, no PC, no other mods except a silencer.
With the PC that rose to almost 1 second.
If you have the re-flash you don't need to remove the flies as it reprograms the ECU to open them much earlier.
...and presumably no dyno time required?
Kevin
Quote from: Kevin on May 10, 2011, 12:44:32 PM
...and presumably no dyno time required?
Kevin
That's the theory! ;)
But why?
If you need more power... buy a damn Hayabusa! Then you'll have power to reach the mooooon..
???
Quote from: mosegaard on May 10, 2011, 10:32:03 PM
But why?
If you need more power... buy a damn Hayabusa! Then you'll have power to reach the mooooon..
???
[Thinks about over-bored, Power Commandered, Dyno'd K8 Hayabusa that is currently in the shop having more mod's done] You won't you know! ;)
Kevin
Quote from: Boomer on May 10, 2011, 04:38:27 PM
That's the theory! ;)
I've now read the thread on the US Forum where there are several people with very entrenched views but it was nice and amicable. I think I'll wait for the before and after dyno charts.
Kevin
@Kevin: Sure... Hayabusa owners are known for optimizing their engines - and they can never get enough! When you buy a Super Touring motorcycle - like GTR1400 - so I think there are other parameters involved. Among other things, whether good comfort, fuel economy, serviceability, etc.
Our fine motorcycle's born with 160HK from start - it has great torque and can run to the end of the world - and back!
Why change something that is SO good?
UK ZZR 14 forum appears to recommend these guys, spoke to m8 last night who's used them. I've dropped them an e-mail.
http://www.hilltopmotorcycles.com/dyno.htm
Quote from: mosegaard on May 10, 2011, 10:32:03 PM
But why?
If you need more power... buy a damn Hayabusa! Then you'll have power to reach the mooooon..
???
I'd rather buy a ZZR 1400 ;D
Quote from: Norman Bates on May 11, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
I'd rather buy a ZZR 1400 ;D
You only say that because you never had a good ride on the new Hayabusa! It exceeds in all respects ZZR1400. :P
True, I've not ridden a hyabusa, but I have ridden a zzr 1400. never had a bigger smile on my face ;D
Quote from: Norman Bates on May 12, 2011, 09:26:11 AM
True, I've not ridden a hyabusa, but I have ridden a zzr 1400. never had a bigger smile on my face ;D
Well then... Your smile could be even bigger... guess how? ::)
Busa? Nah, they are nice but it's not a Kawasaki. ;D
I'll take a ZZR1400, and a 750H2 and a ZG1300/6 and a GPZ900,..... and a KX250,............and a new 1400GTR in the dark green.
Greedy? Me? <LOL>
I give in, do I need a special tool to undo these? Workshop manual not much help >:(
5 mm hex key I think
Check out the first picture in this thread: http://www.gtr1400.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,419.0.html
Mine has two hex bolts instead of four - some mod done by the previous owner I think
Quote from: Norman Bates on May 18, 2011, 08:10:03 PM
5 mm hex key I think
Check out the first picture in this thread: http://www.gtr1400.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,419.0.html
Mine has two hex bolts instead of four - some mod done by the previous owner I think
Must be a mod, screws are as my pic from manual :-( Anti-tamper sheer bolts... ordered these http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380329569696 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380329569696)
Its a hex (allen) key to remove.
Sorry, appears I was wrong. I have no idea what that is. Boomer will probably have an idea
Andy these are anti theft/tamper bolts and they are used to prevent thieves nicking the ECU which is directly underneath the tool tray. I had problems getting them out when I was fitting my first Autocom.
I removed them by a bit of WD40 to free them up and then I used a long stemmed slotted screw driver and careful and patient turning anti clockwise. The screws are only designed to be screwed in and not out so it isnt an easy procedure.
If you get to a point where you have started to turn them and then the screw head is stuffed, just get some mole grips on them and they will slowly turn out. I replaced them with stainless steel allen bolts, much, much easier for future extractions!
Hope thats of some help.
Quote from: Lonewolf on May 20, 2011, 08:10:52 PM
Andy these are anti theft/tamper bolts and they are used to prevent thieves nicking the ECU which is directly underneath the tool tray. I had problems getting them out when I was fitting my first Autocom.
I removed them by a bit of WD40 to free them up and then I used a long stemmed slotted screw driver and careful and patient turning anti clockwise. The screws are only designed to be screwed in and not out so it isnt an easy procedure.
If you get to a point where you have started to turn them and then the screw head is stuffed, just get some mole grips on them and they will slowly turn out. I replaced them with stainless steel allen bolts, much, much easier for future extractions!
Hope thats of some help.
Got one out, loctited in, looks like I need some expert help, drill maybe?
Quote from: Andy on May 21, 2011, 03:07:13 PM
Got one out, loctited in, looks like I need some expert help, drill maybe?
How about drilling a small hole, screwing a bolt in there and turning?
bit of advice here http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/infoneway.html (http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/infoneway.html)
Quote from: pembsgtr on May 21, 2011, 07:09:05 PM
bit of advice here http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/infoneway.html (http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/inffastener/infoneway.html)
Yes, that's the design. I got some bits of ebay which broke..I managed to get them out with lots of swearing and a big flat head screwdriver, just need to find some replacement bolts & post ECU to USA on Monday :)
Andy, the bolts are easy to obtain. I just got some from a local nut and bolt store in stainless steel. I didnt bother glueing them back in.
Quote from: Andy on May 21, 2011, 08:53:22 PM
Yes, that's the design. I got some bits of ebay which broke..I managed to get them out with lots of swearing and a big flat head screwdriver, just need to find some replacement bolts & post ECU to USA on Monday :)
You're going for the ECU flash? What about the O2 sensors? The US bikes don't have those
Quote from: Norman Bates on May 21, 2011, 10:53:08 PM
You're going for the ECU flash? What about the O2 sensors? The US bikes don't have those
They are aware :) http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mUlbI6yuWgAJ:forum.concours.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D85957.80+site:concours.org+o2&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&source=www.google.com (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mUlbI6yuWgAJ:forum.concours.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D85957.80+site:concours.org+o2&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&source=www.google.com)
Quote from: Lonewolf on May 21, 2011, 08:56:00 PM
Andy, the bolts are easy to obtain. I just got some from a local nut and bolt store in stainless steel. I didnt bother glueing them back in.
What size are they please? :)
Quote from: Andy on May 21, 2011, 11:19:38 PM
They are aware :) http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mUlbI6yuWgAJ:forum.concours.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D85957.80+site:concours.org+o2&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&source=www.google.com (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mUlbI6yuWgAJ:forum.concours.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D85957.80+site:concours.org+o2&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&source=www.google.com)
I shall follow your review with interest
Quote from: Andy on May 21, 2011, 11:20:42 PM
What size are they please? :)
I'm not sure as I'm away on holiday at the moment. But I take it your GTR is off the road in any case. I'm back on Saturday, if you can wait till then I'll get you four and post them to you. All free of charge of course. ;D
Andy, got the message. Leave that with me and I'll sort it for you.
Hi Andy,
Good to hear from you...
Yes we can remap the GTR 1400. It retails at £599 inc vat.
We are located in Durham City so please feel free to pop in or call me on 0191-3863422.
Kind regards
Marc Dellapina
www.turbopacs.com
Is that just a map or a dyno session and custom map?
Quote from: Nygie on May 26, 2011, 08:26:52 PM
Is that just a map or a dyno session and custom map?
Don't know didn't ask, couldn't stop laughing ;D Should be a full service, valet and all you can eat buffet for that price :)
$466 = £291+£50 Parcel Force = £341. Cheaper than a PC (which can only control fueling) & dyno time. I'll test with my "butt dyno" when it returns, I'll brim tank & check MPG also :)
I've not done many miles and only on dual carrageways. I've filled tank to brim to check MPG & I'm off to Scotland tomorrow for long weekend. On the plus side the mod is subtle, personally I think you'd need a dyno to tell the difference and I suspect the big change would be on top end. High OD top gear appears to be reason for poor motorway speed acceleration (my GSX-R 1000 has no problems but is lighter / more powerfull / lower top gear). Seems "smoother" i.e. stepless. I've always found bottom end OK (if you're in the right gear). I'll try using eco mode less & see how it feels. Sorry, but a dyno chart would be clearer but I suppose a good mod should be "invisible" :)
Just had it dyno'd yesterday. I'll add graph later, about 144 at rear wheel
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stenton/5835273671/in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stenton/5835273671/in/photostream)
Do you know what it was before?
Kevin
Is there any lag or is the power delivery smooth?
Quote from: Kevin on June 15, 2011, 11:51:19 AM
Do you know what it was before?
Kevin
No...same as any other? 155 - about 16% = 130+ gained maybe 14 HP with ECU & Vance & Hines can? Picks up quicker, have to be gentle getting back on power & seems smoother / seamless. Fuel air ratio about 14 which is maybe a tad lean.
I really dont get it... why adding more power to a 155/160hp touring-bike? ???
Go get a ZZR1400 - or even better... a Hayabusa! Then you'll have enough power
in your (censur) dreams....
:P
I can't answer for Andy but for me it's not about power, it's about grunt.
I currently have a Power Commander waiting to be fitted that came of our '07 GTR. It made a hell of a difference to the low down grunt of that bike and while the '10 bike isn't quite so bad it definitely does bog down out of corners when power is applied without changing down. I don't want to do the gear lever dance unless I have to and on a 1400 I really shouldn't have to.
Kevin
Kevin!
People have a lot of superstitions and tend to "believe in"performance graphs. The truth is probably the one that you might as well be pouring 5 liters of tomato sauce on your tank - and in the same faith "feel" that you get 5% more torque! A change (and failures), for example. 3-4% humidity will give you 15-20hk more on the graph. And the irony is that many people THINK their bike changed into something better, more torque/power, etc.
Anyway... it's not my money spent on ...... well... "nothing"... 8)
Mr. Moose, if you think I'm relying purely on performance graphs you are sadly mistaken. My 'data' comes from 33k miles on our previous GTR and 10k on the current one. I don't need a graph to tell me what's working and what isn't but before and after graphs do show the potential (unless of course you think that dyno's are alchemy in which case we'll just have to disagree).
Kevin
Quote from: mosegaard on June 15, 2011, 08:00:42 PM
I really dont get it... why adding more power to a 155/160hp touring-bike? ???
Go get a ZZR1400 - or even better... a Hayabusa! Then you'll have enough power
in your (censur) dreams....
:P
I wasn't after extra power just didn't behave like a 1400, should have more torque. Was much better in Scotland this weekend, just used 2nd & 3rd :) I've got a GSX-R 1000 which is quick :) Hayabusa'a are fugly...
Quote from: Andy on June 15, 2011, 08:33:19 PM
<snip> Hayabusa'a are fugly...
I used to think that but they grow on you (I suppose one would even get used to a large wart after a period of 'ownership' ;D). It helps that I replaced the rear light cluster so it no longer looks like a baboon's backside when viewed from the rear!
I really like our Hayabusa but would readily admit the ZZR1400 is much prettier.
Kevin
Kevin: I do think that dyno's are "okay"... *but*
I do not agree to major changes in terms GTR1400 gives a better result than the bike fitted as standard. The change in relation to all the changes people make are not ends with the result.
Incidentally, I can live with that we agree to disagree 8)
You can feel it... ie. the changes... but what about the "cool hard facts"... let me see how
changes look-alike on paper! :P
Unfortunately I don't have a stock vs. PC graph to put up.
I had our earlier GTR set up on a dyno twice. Once by a dealer just round the corner from me and later by Laguna Motorcycles in Ashford.
I was quite disappointed by the first set-up. They left a wire trailing out of the bike then implied it must be my fault. I received no graphs and the bike didn't feel any better, both of which surprised me. I haven't ever been back.
I took it into Laguna some time later for another go as I was sure a proper set-up would improve things. This time I did get graphs and while there's not a huge improvement in power the bike felt much better at lower rev's. I've attached one of the graphs from that run but it's not what you (or I) want to see, it's a first set-up on a dyno vs. second set-up on a dyno comparison so doesn't show much of an improvement.
I think the '10 model has more low down grunt as stock but can still bog down coming out of slow corners as I experienced going round (and round and round) the TT circuit so I intend having the PC installed to see if there's any improvement. A friend of mine is going to do it this time so I will have stock vs. PC graphs and I'll post them once it's done. I'm not sure when that will be as he's around 300 miles away so I need a time when we're not so busy. I suspect the results will be less dramatic than I experienced on the earlier model as this bike has more grunt to begin with.
A PC V didn't make a huge difference to our Hayabusa. It pushed power from 180.21 to 186.52 and torque from 107.1 to 109.4 which is pretty negligible.
Kevin
Kevin: The blue and green graph is almost 7% different (humidity) which may also explain the measured difference in both torque and horsepower. I assume that this graph is measured with power commander fitted correctly? In this case, I can tell you that on a standard GTR1400 - vintage 2008/2009/2010 - can make ECU mapping with the same results. And incidentally, it is often seen that "stock" GTR1400, has these performance numbers.
As for tuning your motorcycle so you do not solve the problem by making installation of "Power Commander" as the only one. It actually makes no real difference - regardless of whatever you may feel when you drive! You need to actually get hold of tailpipes, mufflers, air filters, etc. to achieve "safe" performance improvement.
I usually say that "faith is in the church" and the facts going on with measuring instruments!
;D
But my point is still that (almost) is wasted effort to be searching with a Dyno-change in GTR1400, since this engine is as optimal from birth!
Quote from: mosegaard on June 16, 2011, 07:00:35 PM<snip> But my point is still that (almost) is wasted effort to be searching with a Dyno-change in GTR1400, since this engine is as optimal from birth!
Yes of course you're right. How silly of me to think the '07 model is gutless at low rev's and the '10 model is better but not great.
It obviously needed two visits to the dyno before I was ready to worship at the PC altar but now you've set me right I realise my brain had been well and truly washed and the improvements were all in my mind. I guess people all over the world who have removed their secondary 'flies will be rushing to put them back in, Dynojet is going to experience a global slump in PC sales, Andy will be returning his ECU and riders, both members of the public and journalists, who have previously reported this lack of grunt will realise their blasphemy; HEAR THE WORDS "It is optimal from birth". We now understand this as a result of The Enlightenment you have given us.
I can sense you reaching for the keyboard but please don't rush on my behalf as I am well and truly educated and you must be tired after all that thinking. I certainly don't want to tax you any further by questioning the One True Way and have vowed not to question Your Words any further, I know when I'm beaten.
Kevin
Kevin: I'm certainly not tired of thinking! But I ask you just some simple questions based on my knowledge about Dyno and Power Commander - including GTR1400, which I have had the opportunity to test thoroughly. I live just fine with disagreeing with you - and I certainly hope also that you can live with my opinions. It's a free world ....
I would rather make our dialogue based on knowledge and facts .. and not so much faith and feelings! Agree?
Back to your attached graph. Explain to me what the setup is made in relation to these two measurements. And explain to me why the torque and HP are different in the two measurements. What changes have there been on the dyno compared to the humidity? The last factor has famously important readout of torque and horsepower.
Dyno graph attached, make of it what you want :-)
So what is that supposed to tell us?
You have to go at least over 120 mph before you get 'real uumph'?
That'll cost you your license in this country!
What has speed to do with power output anyway?
Wouldn't it make more sense to show rpm instead of mph?
My GTR revvs at just over 4000 rpm at 90mph in overdrive and to get her to really take off I will probably have to switch down 2 gears (which I wasn't allowed to do so far since I'm still running the engine in).
If you want maximum torque at low rpm get yourself a V-twin or a 1250 Bandit (96 BHP @ 3500 rpm) or better even a Diesel engine ;-)
Quote from: Andy on June 17, 2011, 12:01:07 PM
Dyno graph attached, make of it what you want :-)
Hi Andy!
What is it? Stock motor? Modified?
/Hans
Quote from: mecki on June 17, 2011, 12:51:18 PM
So what is that supposed to tell us?
You have to go at least over 120 mph before you get 'real uumph'?
That'll cost you your license in this country!
What has speed to do with power output anyway?
Wouldn't it make more sense to show rpm instead of mph?
My GTR revvs at just over 4000 rpm at 90mph in overdrive and to get her to really take off I will probably have to switch down 2 gears (which I wasn't allowed to do so far since I'm still running the engine in).
If you want maximum torque at low rpm get yourself a V-twin or a 1250 Bandit (96 BHP @ 3500 rpm) or better even a Diesel engine ;-)
Please see subject line; "Dyno graph attached, make of it what you want :-)"
Dyno runs are invariably done in top gear, It's just the way he's cropped the graph / RPM. Electric bikes have max torque from zero RPM, do you recommend them? :) Don't think you should have to change down at 90 on a 1400.....
Quote from: mosegaard on June 17, 2011, 01:08:44 PM
Hi Andy!
What is it? Stock motor? Modified?
/Hans
Stock with Vance & Hines can & ECU re-flash http://www.dptune.com/ (http://www.dptune.com/)
Electric bikes have max torque from zero RPM, do you recommend them?
Well, at the moment I wouldn't, but once somebody comes up with a good fuel cell or battery, which I believe has probably already been invented but so far kept under wraps by the oil-multis, I sure would prefer that to a petrol engine. No chain or shaft drive, no gear box just a motor directly on the wheel. A lot less pollution and noise as well. With oil rapidly running out and petrol prices rising to unaffordable heights, we'll all be riding electric bikes in the not too far future.
That is a beautiful power curve Andy.
It's smooth and consistent.
I'll bet the torque curve that goes with that is flat as a pancake which is exactly what ya want on a big ST bike.
It's not about speed or peak power. On a Tourer or an ST it's all about ride-ability.
A flat torque curve means less gear changes are needed to get reasonable acceleration.
If you do want sports behavior, then change gear, just like you have to on a sports bike.
My biggest bugbear on the GTR is the snatchy throttle which I hope the ECU flash will help with.
Other than that I'd be happiest with a moderate boost.
I don't want ultimate power (buy a ZZR1400), nor ultimate economy (buy a C50 ;D).
I want a smooth pleasant but still fun GTR1400.