Morning all,
After a little over 3 years, and 49,000 miles, my beloved bike has left me stranded for the first time.
Both headlights (and both low and high beam) have all suddenly failed. RAC man came to my rescue, and managed to sort a heath robinson fix by connecting the battery +ve straight to one of the left hand headlight pins via an inline fuse. When this wire is connected, both low beams work but not the high beams. Lights of course now stay on permanently, so I remove the fuse to turn them off.
All the fuses are fine, as are both low and high beam relays (they click when applying 12V to the coil pins, and the switched pins show zero ohms across them when the coil pins have 12V).
Normally, I would suspect an un-loader relay has failed, the part that disables the headlights when we press the starter. However, looking at the wiring diagram, there is no such un-loader relay and it seems to be the main ECU that controls this.
I guess the link between the ECU and the low-beam relay has failed, but the wiring diag is very confusing to my simple mind.
Anyone got any thoughts? Can anyone read the electrical schematic and suggest which wire colours/pins to test between the ECU and the relay?
Thanks,
Martin.
ive got no idea, if the bike was mine i would work it through trial and error and testing everything with a meter starting at the bulbs and working backwards through the switch gear , relays and supply.
i wouldnt even attempt to start testing ecu through fear of damaging it.
An un-loader? never heard of that, I thought the main lights only came on after the engine was started which suggests a relay fired by the altenator circuit?
The headlight relays (2 of) are fed from another relay in the relay box, which is in turn fed from another one. Have you lost any other circuits that are normally only working whilst the engine is running?
Daz
I had similar happen to me last year while in Austria.. The same 'fix it' was done so I could carry on..
Back at Bournemouth Kawasaki they found the problem to be the earth block connections which is located somewhere near the indicator relays to the left of the tank. It is a connection block and one of the connections needed cleaning up..
Martin, hopefully it will be a relatively simple fix as Deb's has mentioned. My guess is Asif will be able to identify the faulty component from the electrical schematic , he's good at all that stuff.
Good luck with it.
Hi
No diagram to hand at the mo, but from memory the lights are fed from the 30A fuse that is hiding next to the battery.
If you take the battery out, to the left there is a red connector, press the lock clip in and pull it off, the fuse is hiding underneath, and there is a spare fuse on the side of the housing.
Richard
Having found the diagram I am wrong, lights don't go through the fuse by the battery.
Both fed from fuse box 1, fuse 5 and 6, and the realy control cct fed from same box fuse 2.
Quote from: Richard on February 16, 2014, 02:52:58 PM
Hi
No diagram to hand at the mo, but from memory the lights are fed from the 30A fuse that is hiding next to the battery.
If you take the battery out, to the left there is a red connector, press the lock clip in and pull it off, the fuse is hiding underneath, and there is a spare fuse on the side of the housing.
That fuse you are talking about Richard is the fuse for the Solenoid. I know because it blew when I was fitting my new wiring loom.. Had to call Kawasaki because the bike was dead. It was that fuse that had blown.
Thanks all for the pointers.
From the limited testing I have managed to do so far, it looks like I am not getting a good +ve to the Red/Yellow wire feeding the pin that energises the relay coil. I am getting 0.4V instead of the 14-ish I would expect when the bike is running.
So, I assume that the low beam headlight relay is never energising, and thus the lights do not turn on.
Now I need to try and understand where that Red/Yellow wire/pin is supposed to be fed from. Trying to trace it back on the wiring diagram is giving me a headache :mfr_lol:
Martin.
Quote from: Martin#30 on February 16, 2014, 09:50:32 PM
Thanks all for the pointers.
From the limited testing I have managed to do so far, it looks like I am not getting a good +ve to the Red/Yellow wire feeding the pin that energises the relay coil. I am getting 0.4V instead of the 14-ish I would expect when the bike is running.
So, I assume that the low beam headlight relay is never energising, and thus the lights do not turn on.
Now I need to try and understand where that Red/Yellow wire/pin is supposed to be fed from. Trying to trace it back on the wiring diagram is giving me a headache :mfr_lol:
Martin.
Are you using headlight / tail light diagram? R / Y on low beam relay comes from dimmer switch. BK / Y earths could be a common :-) issue. Moving parts i.e. switches and relays are most unreliable items :-(
+1 Andy. :agree:
Quote from: Andy on February 16, 2014, 10:05:28 PM
Are you using headlight / tail light diagram? R / Y on low beam relay comes from dimmer switch. BK / Y earths could be a common :-) issue. Moving parts i.e. switches and relays are most unreliable items :-(
Thanks Andy. I must admit that I initially thought I had the same issue that Debs mentioned above, and was thinking there was an earth problem. However, I can see a very low resistance (<0.01 ohms) between the GND pins feeding the relay and the frame.
I think my next step is as you say above, what the electrical schematic calls the 'Dimmer Switch'. I imagine this is the high/low beam switch. I shall see if I can dismantle and clean.
Martin.
Quote from: Rusty on February 16, 2014, 10:44:26 PM
+1 Andy. :agree:
:mfr_lol: Nigel, be honest, you haven't got a clue what Andy was referring to have you?
Martin, would it be easier and less frustrating to just get an auto electrician at a Kwak dealer to sort it out for you, they may well have experienced this problem in the past and be able to put their finger on it immediately, maybe an hours labour?
Quote from: The Wolf on February 17, 2014, 12:33:17 PM
Martin, would it be easier and less frustrating to just get an auto electrician at a Kwak dealer to sort it out for you, they may well have experienced this problem in the past and be able to put their finger on it immediately, maybe an hours labour?
:agree:
Quote from: The Wolf on February 17, 2014, 12:33:17 PM
:mfr_lol: Nigel, be honest, you haven't got a clue what Andy was referring to have you?
Martin, would it be easier and less frustrating to just get an auto electrician at a Kwak dealer to sort it out for you, they may well have experienced this problem in the past and be able to put their finger on it immediately, maybe an hours labour?
Typical Yorkshireman generous with other peoples money :-) I confuse myself sometimes :-) a relay doesn't draw much current but lamps themselves do and would highlight a poor earth. Crock clipping on another earth to lights (don't earth +ve connection....) would be another test. I'd bet five pounds of Wolf's money on dip switch as they spend 90% of the time stuck in same position:-)
Quote from: The Wolf on February 17, 2014, 12:33:17 PM
Martin, would it be easier and less frustrating to just get an auto electrician at a Kwak dealer to sort it out for you, they may well have experienced this problem in the past and be able to put their finger on it immediately, maybe an hours labour?
For sure, but I quite like learning about these sort of things - plus I get a fair bit of satisfaction from solving these sort of things myself.
My job does not involve creating things, so I think my inner caveman needs to actually build/fix stuff. At least I think that is why I am currently turbocharging my MX5 on a cold, and wet wintry driveway :rolleyes:
If I have not fixed it by the time it goes in for it's 48k service (a couple of weeks), then I will add it to the list. This may prove to be the world's most costly GTR service at this rate - the big 24k valve service, plus it needs front brakes and tyres, and a potentially tricky to diagnose electrical fault. Sorry kids, no new shoes for a year :mfr_lol:
Martin.
Damnation Steve ... You know me too well ! :mfr_lol:
Quote from: The Wolf on February 15, 2014, 07:33:39 PM
My guess is Asif will be able to identify the faulty component from the electrical schematic , he's good at all that stuff.
Nothing like putting me under pressure :sweatdrop: In this case I don't know :surrender:
Quote from: Martin#30 on February 17, 2014, 04:40:01 PM
For sure, but I quite like learning about these sort of things - plus I get a fair bit of satisfaction from solving these sort of things myself.
Spot on. There's nothing like the feeling of doing something better or to the same standard as a pro.
Good luck with getting it sorted.
Edit: Just to add a little ancedote. Had one of the three Honeywell 2 port valves go on my central heating. Phoned a few plumbers and they all wanted in excess of £150 to supply and fit. Didn't seem to complicated, so ordered one of the net for £50. Wiring was a bit complicated, but plenty of photos and took one step at a time.
OK, getting a little further on this one now. I thought I may as well document it here in case it helps someone with a similar problem in the future.
Easy stuff first. I had already tested and ruled out the headlight relay under the forward tank cover, and all of the fuses. I know the bulbs themselves are good because the RAC temp fix (12V straight from battery to bulb) works.
Next was the High/Low beam switch on the left handlebar. Two obvious screws in the switch casing, and two smaller screws inside removes the switch itself for examination.
(http://www.trackandrace.com/images/1400GTR/Switch1.jpg)
Two small plastic tabs split the switch itself, and voila, the brass terminals that will fur up and stop the switch working
(http://www.trackandrace.com/images/1400GTR/Switch2.jpg)
(http://www.trackandrace.com/images/1400GTR/Switch3.jpg)
Cleaned it with a file, put all this back together, but still no headlights.
OK, so onto the wiring diagrams. This was a real learning experience for me, trying to understand this and apply it to reality with switches, relays and wires running all over the bike.
(http://www.trackandrace.com/images/1400GTR/WireDiag1.jpg)
I can see from this that the headlight relay needs 12V at the red/yellow wire to light the headlights. With the bike running, I am getting nothing through this wire but when I apply 12V to it in the high beam switch (number 7 in the bottom right), the lights come on.
So, tracing it further back, the high beam switch itself should be getting 12V down the blue/yellow wire. It is not getting it.
(http://www.trackandrace.com/images/1400GTR/WireDiag2.jpg)
Blue/Yellow is fed from something called the relay box, and in particular, relay number 2. I can see that the relay should be receiving 12V down the grey wire, and then when the relay is energised, it should send 12V down the blue/yellow and ultimately into the headlights.
My trouble now is that this relay box is here, with the connector to relay number 2 arrowed.
(http://www.trackandrace.com/images/1400GTR/Switch5.jpg)
To get at the wires to see if the relay is at fault, or if something even further back is broken, it looks like I need to drill out these security screws (circled).
Oh well, at least I am learning.
Oh, and Mr Kawasaki designer, why the f&*k do you need two relays, one at either end of the bike, just for the bl*&dy headlights.
Martin.
Don't drill out those security bolts, with some good grips I managed to undo them and replaced with standard stainless bolts.
Martin, on another note we both rode down to the lower lode in with some others including Wiltsguy (john?) is he still around?
Alan
Hi
I had to remove those security screws on mine to fit the speedo healer.
Use a good pair of wire cutters and grip either side of the head, this will give you enough grip to turn the screw.
Richard
There was another post about removing bolts using something like http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151065660975?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151065660975?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649) I used a blunt chisel :-)
Half split fault finding method was the way I was taught so if the power is present at the beginning but not at the end of the chain then go to the approximate middle point rather than going through every step. Then if voltage is present split the "half" again.
Got to be something common to main & dip lights. Flasher switch works in paralel to dip switch and would have been another check.
Hope you don't need http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Relais-Box-Steuerteil-Relaiy-Assy-27002-0007-Kawasaki-GTR-1400-/350986981370?pt=DE_Motorradteile&hash=item51b8744ffa (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Relais-Box-Steuerteil-Relaiy-Assy-27002-0007-Kawasaki-GTR-1400-/350986981370?pt=DE_Motorradteile&hash=item51b8744ffa)
I used a hammer and screw driver to remove the bolts. :yes:
They're pretty easy to remove, there's no need to drill them.
You guys who claim those security bolts were easy to remove, I just want to say, you lucky, lucky bar-stewards :mfr_lol: I am guessing 3 british winters have rusted mine solid.
This tool managed to remove one of them
(http://www.powertoolsdirect.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/r/irwin-bolt-grip-fastener-remover-base-set-of-5.jpg)
A lot of drilling, and one of these got two more
(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_18082.jpg)
1.5 hours, 2 dremel grinding discs and a lot of swearing later got the last one :censored:
They must make these damn things out of diamond ......
Anyway, the good news is that Andy was right. It is that relay box that is at fault. The fault finding pages that Andy linked from the manual show that one of the diodes has gone, and alas the whole box is sealed.
I have ordered a second hand one from an '11 ZZR1400 for now. New ones are about £90, but hopefully £20 worth of second hand one will do the job for another few years.
Cheers all,
Martin.
I feel sick.
Quote from: Rusty on February 19, 2014, 09:30:54 PM
I feel sick.
Surely not from my mechanical
butchery finesse ? :mfr_lol:
Anyway, I celebrated too early. It was too late last night to test the bike after I put it all back together, and this morning, got on to ride to work and the alternator is not charging the battery :censored:
I will obviously need a larger drill this time ......
Martin.
Quote from: Martin#30 on February 20, 2014, 08:58:38 AM
Surely not from my mechanical butchery finesse ? :mfr_lol:
Anyway, I celebrated too early. It was too late last night to test the bike after I put it all back together, and this morning, got on to ride to work and the alternator is not charging the battery :censored:
I will obviously need a larger drill this time ......
Martin.
And a very large :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: ............. :mfr_lol:
When I ran a workshop any electrical fault especially if it was intermittent was always described as "Taking the kids to the dentist" or "A right royal pain in the :asshole:" :mfr_lol:
My thoughts are with you on this difficult to find problem :sweatdrop:
As I need the bike to get to work, I have been tearing into it again today to try and fix the charging problems.
Tested the alternator as the manual recommends, and I get 78V at 4,000rpm so I reckon the alternator is good.
(http://www.trackandrace.com/Images/1400GTR/Manual1.jpg)
Removed the reg/rec, and tested that too per the manual. My resistance values are very different on any measurement involving the 'W' pin, so I reckon it is probably goosed. Not enormously surprising after spending 50k miles being water blasted by road muck.
(http://www.trackandrace.com/Images/1400GTR/Manual2.jpg)
The failed reg/rec is probably what blew the diode in the main relay pack too, causing my loss of headlights.
Let's hope a replacement reg/rec fixes the issue, and I am not chasing yet more electrical faults afterwards :ohplease:
Martin.
Oh, and to give you all a bit of a giggle, the replacement parts are going to take a few days to arrive of course.
My commute is 52 miles by motorway, 65 miles by normal roads. There is no car parking for me at work, and the only other bike I can use in the meantime is one of these beasts.
(http://www.trackandrace.com/Images/1400GTR/DB50.jpg)
Yep, a whopping £200 worth of 2.4bhp 50cc Chinese vespa lawsuit dodging project bike I bought for my 12 year old to do up with me.
Wish me luck :mfr_lol:
Martin.
Just to make you feel better Martin I managed to get my 4 security bolts out within 20 minutes with a screwdriver and a pair of mini mole grips. :popcorn:
Quote from: The Wolf on February 20, 2014, 02:41:24 PM
Just to make you feel better Martin I managed to get my 4 security bolts out within 20 minutes with a screwdriver and a pair of mini mole grips. :popcorn:
Nope, not buying it. Just not possible. Must be some other forces involved here .... :mfr_lol:
(http://gal.darkervision.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/burn-the-witch-burn-witch-kill-monty-python-demotivational-poster-1223816026-200x189.jpg)
Martin.
Hi
Have to say mine came out so easily it made me wonder why they fitted them in the first place :banana:
Richard
Quote from: Richard on February 20, 2014, 07:11:48 PM
Hi
Have to say mine came out so easily it made me wonder why they fitted them in the first place :banana:
Richard
Now he's going to be really pissed off. :popcorn:
Well it is finally fixed. A replacement regulator/rectifier fixed the charging issue, and a replacement relay box fixed the headlights issue.
The bike lives to fight another 50k miles.
I am convinced that the reg/rec went first (and I simply had not noticed) and that caused the relay box to fail. I noticed, albeit too late, that the charging voltage had dropped to the 12.8-13.2V range after the headlights failed.
So all, keep an eye on your charging voltage and if it is dropping lower than the normal 13.8V ish off idle, then start to think about replacing that reg/rec before it does any damage to other electrical parts. Given the reg/rec's location right in the spray from the rear wheel, I think it did very well to last 50k miles on mine. They are £220ish new, but plenty of ZZR1400 second hand ones out there (same part) for £40-£60.
Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions,
Martin.