Just looking to see if anyone has got a wood burner installed. Our heating bills have shot through the roof and am seriously thinking of putting a 12k wood burner in to heat most of downstairs. I can get a ready supply of hard wood off cuts relatively cheap, and I have two trees in my garden that may come down at some point. Once seasoned, they will heat the house up for a good number of years.
The previous owner put in a plaster case surround and then the heath around it, meaning we can't take it off without removing the heath. Also, removing it would mean damage to the wall paper and redecorating. One fitter has said he can remove the cast iron insert by cutting it out. To me it seems like a tough job. It would have to be a serious grinder to cut a cast iron insert. What's the best tool for removal?
We converted from an open fire to a woodburner.
It's a fairly aggressive change as most fireplace openings are nowhere near big enough, we've gone for an 8kw fire, but for 12kw you're definite;y going to be hunting the space.
Having said that, I took out the fireplace myself, the structural space in your fireplace is probablt just about adequate, most fireplaces will fill in to shring the hole down to size.
Things to bear in mind:
Woodburners are deemed more environmentally friendly, so if you go that way you theoretically can't go back to an open fire;
As a fire source they will need a direct outsode vent, although not large, and vertainly not a chinmey, you will notice the draught at times, well, the boss will!
As an asthmatic, I still notice the impact compared to central heating, and by the end of the winter my chest is getting desperate to miss the open fire - I am a serious asthmatic, so you may well never notice
Do I regret changing? No, they're great fires, far cleaner than open fires and always good to look at, but be aware, check the dimensions of the fire you want and remember you will ideally want 8" all the way around, 4-5 possible at the sides, but really 10-12 above
As Bumpkin said you definitely need ventilation Asif, its very important !
I supplement wood with coal in my multifuel burner and it gets hot, a 12 k burner seems to be a sizeable output and will use a good deal of wood, your two trees will have to be :censored: big or you will have to use your burner only occasionally ! its amazing how much wood they get through.
The wood needs to be the right type and dry enough to burn so a wood store is fairly important too.
The only comment i can make on wood burners , is supply of wood is getting expensive/hard to get as everyone wants the stuff now, are you in a smoke free zone ? and i believe most of the heat from a wood burner comes from the Flue, people i know have had the flue going up through the first floor and out of the wall on the second story, in a fireplace setting 90% of the heat will go up the chimney, set ups ive seen the wood burner just sits on a stone hearth , keeping the burner door closed and transfering the heat through the internal flue will reduce the dust from the burner .
Quote from: Bumpkin on February 10, 2013, 05:44:32 PM
We converted from an open fire to a woodburner.
It's a fairly aggressive change as most fireplace openings are nowhere near big enough, we've gone for an 8kw fire, but for 12kw you're definite;y going to be hunting the space.
Things to bear in mind:
Woodburners are deemed more environmentally friendly, so if you go that way you theoretically can't go back to an open fire;
As a fire source they will need a direct outsode vent, although not large, and vertainly not a chinmey, you will notice the draught at times, well, the boss will!
As an asthmatic, I still notice the impact compared to central heating, and by the end of the winter my chest is getting desperate to miss the open fire - I am a serious asthmatic, so you may well never notice
Our downstairs room is massive and all the size calculations point to a 12kw burner. The existing fireplace is massive so fitting one in shouldn't be a problem. What size is your room? Someone has told me to get an 8kw and burn it hard. Apparently that will heat up the room significantly.
The one I'm looking at is room sealed i.e. it gets the cold air in from an external vent. I'm also mildly asthmatic - I assume its the smoke from when you load the wood into the burner?
Quote from: olde coney on February 10, 2013, 05:55:58 PM
As Bumpkin said you definitely need ventilation Asif, its very important !
I supplement wood with coal in my multifuel burner and it gets hot, a 12 k burner seems to be a sizeable output and will use a good deal of wood, your two trees will have to be :censored: big or you will have to use your burner only occasionally ! its amazing how much wood they get through.
The wood needs to be the right type and dry enough to burn so a wood store is fairly important too.
I'm going to start on a wood store this week. I know a place that sells off cuts for £10/tonne. I also know people that are giving up on wood burners and going back to CH because of the price of wood. However, because of the area I live in, there's plenty of trees going and it'll keep me fit and healthy I hope!
Quote from: viper on February 10, 2013, 06:41:21 PM
in a fireplace setting 90% of the heat will go up the chimney, set ups ive seen the wood burner just sits on a stone hearth , keeping the burner door closed and transfering the heat through the internal flue will reduce the dust from the burner .
Is the 90% figure true for wood burners? I thought they were 80% or so efficient, unlike the old open fires whioch were 90% inefficient due to the heat going up the chimney
Our lounge is about 15' X 26' we use the wood burner to supplement the central heating, and leave the door to the hall open to let the heat around the house.
The outside vent was drilled during the install, just a small hole through the back of the fireplace.
Running full blast it makes way too much heat, but you do race through the fuel then.
As far as my asthma goes I don't think it's the damp from the vent, and you only really get smoke on lighting, so I try to steer clear until the chimney heats up, I actually think you get an odd smell when running really hot, I suspect it's from the dust literally being baked off into the room - hopefully most installations wouldn't have such a dusty house, but with an aga and afghans.....
If you do get one you have to get an ecofan! I think it does make a difference, but many don't, but they are so cool
The 12kw isn't Defra approved so can't use that one. I did ring up the supplier and he said the 8k version is more suited. Run efficiently its more of a 10kw output and because of its efficiency will heat up a room that is 24x28x11 quite easily.
The problem is different installers have differing views. Some have suggested around 8kw, others 12kw.
I will be going for an ecofan as I have heard good things about them.
Just had a woodburner/multifuel stove fitted (17th January). Asked three installers for quotes and was given two very different answers, the first company were going to install a free - standing stove, the second and third said only an inset would fit properly due to chimney constraints. This was the route taken.
Very happy with the results, however I understand that the HETAS Certificate is vital (i.e. from an approved installer) as otherwise in the event of a fire, the insurers could reject any claim. Also important if the house is sold at some point.
We needed to have a hardwood mantleshelf replaced with slate, as there was insufficient clearance between this and the stove to meet the HETAS requirements.
To summarise: NOT CHEAP - our 4.5kw unit installed and with the new mantleshelf cost almost £2,000. Uses lots of wood/solid fuel (it is only there as a feature and to supplement central heating) and I could easily spend £50 or more per week on fuelling it, but it is very nice to have.
I think, from experience now, that an approved installation is a must!
Quote from: flatfour on February 11, 2013, 01:41:07 PM
To summarise: NOT CHEAP - our 4.5kw unit installed and with the new mantleshelf cost almost £2,000. Uses lots of wood/solid fuel (it is only there as a feature and to supplement central heating) and I could easily spend £50 or more per week on fuelling it, but it is very nice to have.
I think, from experience now, that an approved installation is a must!
£50 for a week on a 4.5Kw is alot! Which brand burner have you got? And how much are you paying for your wood?
I will be going Hetas registered. Don't want insurance etc voided.
It's a Town & Country Stoves Runswick Multi - Fuel Burner. Fuels are from Dodds of Shipdam (they have a website with all prices on it) and we normally use a mixture of "Blaze", "Ecologs" or Logs. The fire is normally used daily for around 3 - 4 hours.
This level of fuel usage is comparable with other friends' comments with their multi - fuel stoves of various makes.
I'm not suggesting you do this but....
I lived for 6 years in a chalet at 850m altitude in the French Alps. The ONLY form of heating we had was a 12KW wood burning insert. Forgive me, but I just don't know the English terminology... The whole place was about 80M² and very poorly insulated. It heated upstairs and downstairs (although upstairs mostly due to the lack of insulation - so much so that we had to have the windows open sometimes even with -15°C outside!)
The amount of heat you can get off a 12KW one is tremendous. You do need to install it properly though. Ours had no "turbo" to drive the air and so was totally convective.
The space above it (la hotte, in French) was where, in my case, most of the hot air was wasted because there was no upper and lower ventilation to get a good circulation going. So I installed a fan that drew the hot air (out of the hotte only - not from the actual insert - so there was no CO risk) and distributed it into 3 rooms via some cleverly hidden ducting... This fan would come on when the air temperature reached a certain point, and it's constant droning in the winter was what we put up with instead of freezing our arses.
(http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t328/rosbif_2000/Odds%20and%20sods/DSC03207.jpg)
We did go through 8 stere of wood per year though............... about 600 EUR
We had no other heating.
I am also asthmatic and I have to say the fire really didn't bother me much at all.
Also, when I lived in the South of France, I had a very old 17th century stone house with incredibly high ceilings. This was also a PITA to heat in the winter, although it didn't get down to the kinds of extremes mentioned above. It did get uncomfortably cold though and the electricity bills were outrageous because of excessive use of the heaters due to (again) poor insulation etc.
We installed an 6.5KW wood burning stove and we put a really long visible internal chimney pipe up to the ceiling in the lounge. This gets RED HOT and heats the place up with ease. Again, the amount of heat that this thing churned out was staggering...
It also chewed it's way through a lot of wood, but this is where I learned the importance of properly seasoned dry wood. We used a lot of pine, which was good to get it started, but didn't last all night. A good oak log went on last thing at night and this tended to last until morning.
No strange fan installations on this, as it was just a stand alone stove. Brilliant though!
(http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t328/rosbif_2000/Odds%20and%20sods/137-3757_IMG.jpg)
This was way before we renovated the place...
This is the one we had - just found it on the net :)
http://www.poeleaboisgodin.com/6-poele-a-bois-godin-regence-3144-3596150000375.html (http://www.poeleaboisgodin.com/6-poele-a-bois-godin-regence-3144-3596150000375.html)
Got gas central heating now - WHAT A LUXURY !!!
Cheers
Ros
Ros, is the last picture one of you praying for the fire to light :mfr_lol:
:mfr_lol: something like that...
Thanks for the info Ros.
Originally the house was heated on oil and has big metal pipe ducts (and I mean big - 2ftx2f maybe) going around the house to distribute the heat. The previous occupants got rid of the oil heating and installed gas central heating. The big ducts are still there, but broken up and used to route wiring and central heating pipes.
Now, I like your idea of routing the heat throughout the house. I could reuse the ducts to make it easier.
When you say the burner needs to be installed correctly, what do you mean?
This is Asif Towers as he likes to call his humble residence. It's going to take some heating. :wink:
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/Jaffa_Cake101/AsifsHouse.jpg)
Quote from: Lonewolf on February 12, 2013, 06:32:59 PM
This is Asif Towers as he likes to call his humble residence. It's going to take some heating. :wink:
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/Jaffa_Cake101/AsifsHouse.jpg)
:mfr_lol: well at least he'll have plenty trees to chop down on his estate :mfr_lol:
Quote from: Lonewolf on February 12, 2013, 06:32:59 PM
This is Asif Towers as he likes to call his humble residence. It's going to take some heating. :wink:
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/Jaffa_Cake101/AsifsHouse.jpg)
:mfr_lol: I wish!
Hi Asif,
To get max heat out of it, and allow recuperation of hot air from around the chimney part, the "hotte", I don't know what this is in English is the enclosed space above the fire, but surrounding the metal chimney. The air in there gets nice and hot and you can either use a convective circuit (vent in the top and vent in the bottom) or do what I did and force the air through it and distribute it around the place. Some diagrams:
(http://www.bricomarche.com/uploads/tx_bricoconseils/rte/RTEmagicC_shema.jpg.jpg)
(http://www.bricomarche.com/uploads/tx_bricoconseils/rte/RTEmagicC_shema2.jpg.jpg)
I don't know what norms you need to adhere to in the UK...
In terms of installation, you are probably looking at something like this:
(http://www.maisonachat.ca/images/Foyer%20insert.gif)
The whole point is that the burning chamber is sealed from the room and is surrounded by a heating chamber where air heats up and is distributed into the room, either by convection or with an integrated fan. Either way, to get more hot air out of the top part (the metal chimney going up to the roof) you should consider the "hotte" thing as described above. You see, in the last diagram, there will be a lot of hot air wasted in the existing flue part... It could require a bit of rebuilding depending on how your existing setup looks. Worth it though, to get even more hot air out :)
Sorry for my total lack of English vocabulary and my worse-than-normal command of the Queen's English... Speaking too much Italian and French this week...
Cheers
Ros
Asif .. whatever you have good luck with your project.
I don't have one and never have done but I think they are a great addition to a house .. like an AGA .. the closest I had was an open fire in the lounge in our old house and I just loved it ... the smell of burning wood etc .. brilliant. :laugh:
Wow Ros, thanks for that. Looks more techie that working with a motorbike!
Looks like you need a channel for hot and cold air for it to be efficient plus some fans. Before I get the wood burner, we're getting the windows replaced with new double glazing (old ones are crap). Hopefully that will make a difference to the heat retained in the house. After that, I can size the wood burner appropriately. Appears I must have a Defra approved one.
Asif,
We have had a wood burner in our 1700s cottage - it was already here since we moved in 14 years ago.
Don't get one to save money, as you won't. As an aesthetic, it is lovely. I really enjoy a real fire. But you won't save money from my experience.
Unless you go to the trouble of a proper, heat recovery system like Ros describes, huge amounts of heat are lost through the chimney. You will only ever heat one, possibly two rooms with it, so you still need the central heating. Don't forget the sheer PITA nature of them too, getting one going initally is significantly more than turning the heating on, and the clear-up of ash every couple of days too.
I am glad we have one, but I would not pay money to add one myself. It has been 3 or 4 years since we last used ours, despite a log store full of logs outside. Just never seems worth the hassle to me.
Martin.
QuoteDon't forget the sheer PITA nature of them too, getting one going initally is significantly more than turning the heating on, and the clear-up of ash every couple of days too.
If I had the money, I'd have bought something like this:
http://www.poeles-a-bois-en-ligne.com/insert-granules/1062-foyer-a-granules-ecoforest-eco-ii-insert-mini-anthracite-5450500205934.html
(http://www.poeles-a-bois-en-ligne.com/1062-1349-large/foyer-a-granules-ecoforest-eco-ii-insert-mini-anthracite.jpg)
The expensive ones can be controlled with a timer with a schedule. If used with a decent heat recuperation system, then could be interesting.
I have a couple of friends who have this type of system and they too kick out large quantities of heat. From what I remember it works with en electrical ignition system, forced air (like a furnace) produces very little ash (burns more than 90% of the material) and you just fill 'er up with pellets every now and then.
I was up in the Trentino area the other day on business and popped into a cafe for a cappucino... as you do... and they had one heating up 100M² of dining area. -5°C outside, and about 30 inside.
Bloody brilliant :)
Anyway - back to work...
Cheers
Ros
Quote from: Martin#30 on February 15, 2013, 10:05:16 AM
Asif,
We have had a wood burner in our 1700s cottage - it was already here since we moved in 14 years ago.
Don't get one to save money, as you won't. As an aesthetic, it is lovely. I really enjoy a real fire. But you won't save money from my experience.
Unless you go to the trouble of a proper, heat recovery system like Ros describes, huge amounts of heat are lost through the chimney. You will only ever heat one, possibly two rooms with it, so you still need the central heating. Don't forget the sheer PITA nature of them too, getting one going initally is significantly more than turning the heating on, and the clear-up of ash every couple of days too.
I am glad we have one, but I would not pay money to add one myself. It has been 3 or 4 years since we last used ours, despite a log store full of logs outside. Just never seems worth the hassle to me.
Martin.
Hi Martin (where did the #30 come from :mfr_lol: )
Nice to read that you have good taste in property. Mine is built in 1801 and whilst a lovely home the heating costs are starting to :censored: me off. Its like having a second mortgage.
I appreciate we won't be able to heat up all the house. Currently we only heat downstairs which is sufficient to keep upstairs warm as well. We have a few diseased trees that need coming down, and one of my distant neighbours has land with fallen trees. I reckon from the trees in my garden there's probably enough wood to heat the house for 3 - 4 years, and possibly 8 years worth from the neighbour (if he agrees).
Beginning of October to mid March we've spent approx £1500 quid on gas alone. As we're South facing I can't see there being much demand for summer so I'm hoping gas ends up costing us max £2200 and electric £800. If I can come in at £3k I'll be happy.
But next year I want the gas company to get f all off me if I can help it.
Quote from: Ros on February 15, 2013, 12:24:49 PM
If I had the money, I'd have bought something like this:
http://www.poeles-a-bois-en-ligne.com/insert-granules/1062-foyer-a-granules-ecoforest-eco-ii-insert-mini-anthracite-5450500205934.html (http://www.poeles-a-bois-en-ligne.com/insert-granules/1062-foyer-a-granules-ecoforest-eco-ii-insert-mini-anthracite-5450500205934.html)
(http://www.poeles-a-bois-en-ligne.com/1062-1349-large/foyer-a-granules-ecoforest-eco-ii-insert-mini-anthracite.jpg)
The expensive ones can be controlled with a timer with a schedule. If used with a decent heat recuperation system, then could be interesting.
I have a couple of friends who have this type of system and they too kick out large quantities of heat. From what I remember it works with en electrical ignition system, forced air (like a furnace) produces very little ash (burns more than 90% of the material) and you just fill 'er up with pellets every now and then.
I was up in the Trentino area the other day on business and popped into a cafe for a cappucino... as you do... and they had one heating up 100M² of dining area. -5°C outside, and about 30 inside.
Bloody brilliant :)
Anyway - back to work...
Cheers
Ros
How much does it consume pellet wise do you know?
I didn't know the answer to that one... But - I had a little look on the froggie websites and this is what I found:
For this kind of heater:
8Kw is OK for 80m²
12Kw is OK for 120m²
14Kw is OK for 140m²
Approximately...
Then, You can expect to use about 1Kg per hour of pellets
If you use 2000 to 2500 hours of heating per year, that's 2 or 3 tonnes of pellets per year.
You're using about 70 to 110 watts per hour...
I didn't check the maths, but that's what it said on one website I looked at.
For info, I was heating 65m² with nothing but a 12Kw insert fireplace and used up to 10 stere of wood a year (10 tonnes)
This type of heater is far more efficient. Incidentally, my mate who has one says that it burns nearly everything - there is surprisingly little ash in the 'ash tray' even after some considerable usage.
Hope this helps.
The web page (in French) that I used for these figures is here:
http://www.poele-a-granule.fr/faq_poele_a_granule.php
Cheers
Ros
Quote from: Kwikasfuki on March 15, 2013, 03:17:36 PM
Hi Martin (where did the #30 come from :mfr_lol: )
Asif,
It comes from the start of my mid life crisis, when at the age of 30 and with my eldest just born, I decided it would be the perfect time to start racing motorbikes. It was great fun whilst it lasted - i.e. common sense and parental responsibility caught up with me :oops: . My 'old' forum username (MJJ_ZX6RR) made sense to me as it is my initials and my favourite race bike, but makes no sense to any other soul - thus thought I'd swap.
If you really do have access to that much wood, then maybe the woodburner is the way to go. If you are spending £1,500 a year on gas though, I cannot help thinking better insulation in the house, and/or a more efficient condensing gas boiler may be the better way to go. Wood burners are a monumental faff, great for the odd winter night in front of the fire, but not as a proper, everyday heat source.
Martin
Insulating the house is a big task. So many drafts. I will be arming myself with caulk and insulating where I can.
Its not £1500 for the year, more likely to be around the 3k mark. I estimate 6k if we heated upstairs as well.