I fitted blue LED bulbs in my middle running lights at the weekend and right on cue was stopped by a traffic policeman today. He was very pleasant, but left me in no doubt that if I did not change them back to white bulbs the next time he sees me he will issue a ticket. Now I have understood by following several threads on here that they are perfectly legal and do not cause anyone else problems either with the police or during MOT's. My question to all you black rats and barrack room lawers is did he have a legal arguement or was he just irritated because he felt I was impersonating a police officer, which I definitely was not? We have all seen instances of those that do and any additions to my bike are only in the interest of being more visable and therefore, hopefully safer. All in all it was not a big problem as we had a good chat and being a biker himself he was very interested in the GTR, but I still have a niggling suspicion that he was on dodgy ground from a legal perspective.
Regulation 3 & 16 Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989
Only emergency vehicles may be fitted with blue lights.
Includes those that are masked over and not wired.
(Reg 16) No vehicle other than emergency vehicle shall be fitted with:
A blue warning beacon or special warning lamp or a device that resembles either, whether working or not.
Basically Reg 3 states you can't fit blue lights. Reg 16 that you can't fit anything resembling them by colour, whether working or not.
The cop was correct and the urban myths have come about as a result of the 'Max Power' generation wanting to interpret legislation to suit custom vehicles.
Winston (ex Black-Rat)
Right then, thanks Winston. Off they come tonight.
OH poo... That means I will have to replace my blue side lights :sad:
What about headlights that look blue from a distance? We've all seen them on cars when they go over a bump and it flickers blue?
i had a zzr 1100 a few years ago that failed its mot for having a blue sidelight bulb.
So a new question. If I buy blue LED "Bullet" lights and install them under the mirrors is that legal? BTW changed back to the original white lights so completely legal again. :sad:
As per Winstons earlier reply, the fitting of blue lights is an offence.
wonder how the factory fitted option/standard blue "HID (high intensity discharge)" lights fitted on cars get away with it :undecided:
They are of course all spot on .. no blue lights unless you are in or on a job motor ... white lights to the front and red lights to the rear. End Of ! :police:
Quote from: Rusty on September 05, 2012, 07:59:09 PM
They are of course all spot on .. no blue lights unless you are in or on a job motor ... white lights to the front and red lights to the rear. End Of ! :police:
:agree: but car manufacturers do fit them as standard or as a optional extra :shocked: so would you have a explanation for this total lack of respect for the law.. :mfr_lol:
Quote from: 2kwacks on September 05, 2012, 07:50:46 PM
wonder how the factory fitted option/standard blue "HID (high intensity discharge)" lights fitted on cars get away with it :undecided:
The latest directive from VOSA includes their view that unless strict criteria are met, after-market HID kits may not be legal.
There is some confusion regarding the change in legislation towards HID kits. Although we are still trying to determine the full details here is some text that may help! Many thanks to the MX3 Forum guys who bought it to my attention
Here is the relevant text -
"In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).
For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.
Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.
2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).
3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.
In practice this means:
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.
In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."
If you are found to be using lights which don't comply, in all likelihood, you may be reported to the Procurator Fiscal and may end up with a fine.
The above seems to be a precursor to the new MOT criteria slated to come into existance on New Years Eve 2011 (for 2012), this is from the MOT Testers VOSA bullitin explaining the new EU MOT regulations which were ratified this year, and includes amongst other things, the testing of wiring harnesses, the testing for illegal HID kits and, wait for it, chipped ECU's, whatever that means The article is quite long, but here is a small extract .....
"As far as changes to the test content are concerned, VOSA has already been analysing the requirements of the new Directive and working out how to implement them. We started this earlier in the year by talking with representatives of the MOT trade at our regular Trade User Group and VTS Council meetings. Both VOSA and the Department for Transport (DfT) are keen to ensure that any changes to the test are introduced in as practical a way as possible, keeping the burden on the trade to a minimum and ideally keeping the changes cost neutral.
In many cases, the changes shouldn't necessarily lead to an increase in average test times. A good example is the malfunction indicator lamps on the dashboard that indicate defective electronic power steering, electronic stability control and secondary restraint systems. Testers already check the dashboard for other lamps, so no extra time would be required for this addition to the test.
Electrical wiring and batteries are now included in the test's scope, but testers already check the vehicle structure where wiring is secured – often along the same routes as other testable items, such as brake pipes in the engine compartment. So again, this doesn't look like an additional burden on the tester. In the pre-computerisation days, testers often (wrongly) failed vehicles for insecure batteries, so they must have been looking at them then! Now, it means that when we implement the new Directive, vehicles can legitimately fail for battery insecurity, for no extra tester effort.Other items – such as headlamp bulb and unit incompatibility, headlamp levelling devices and illegal engine 'chipping' – will need further thought before we can get a workable solution for MOT stations."
i did a job for a policeman who had blue spot lights fitted to the front bar of his landrover defender , his own vehicle. he told me that they were legal , im so confused on this matter, i see blue lights in some shape or form on a daily basis. Also what about blue strip lights that people fit under their fairings and mudguards ect. which shine down onto the road surface
Quote from: deb3km on September 05, 2012, 08:32:32 PM
The latest directive from VOSA includes their view that unless strict criteria are met, after-market HID kits may not be legal.
There is some confusion regarding the change in legislation towards HID kits. Although we are still trying to determine the full details here is some text that may help! Many thanks to the MX3 Forum guys who bought it to my attention
Here is the relevant text -
"In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).
For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.
Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.
2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).
3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.
In practice this means:
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.
In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."
If you are found to be using lights which don't comply, in all likelihood, you may be reported to the Procurator Fiscal and may end up with a fine.
The above seems to be a precursor to the new MOT criteria slated to come into existance on New Years Eve 2011 (for 2012), this is from the MOT Testers VOSA bullitin explaining the new EU MOT regulations which were ratified this year, and includes amongst other things, the testing of wiring harnesses, the testing for illegal HID kits and, wait for it, chipped ECU's, whatever that means The article is quite long, but here is a small extract .....
"As far as changes to the test content are concerned, VOSA has already been analysing the requirements of the new Directive and working out how to implement them. We started this earlier in the year by talking with representatives of the MOT trade at our regular Trade User Group and VTS Council meetings. Both VOSA and the Department for Transport (DfT) are keen to ensure that any changes to the test are introduced in as practical a way as possible, keeping the burden on the trade to a minimum and ideally keeping the changes cost neutral.
In many cases, the changes shouldn't necessarily lead to an increase in average test times. A good example is the malfunction indicator lamps on the dashboard that indicate defective electronic power steering, electronic stability control and secondary restraint systems. Testers already check the dashboard for other lamps, so no extra time would be required for this addition to the test.
Electrical wiring and batteries are now included in the test's scope, but testers already check the vehicle structure where wiring is secured – often along the same routes as other testable items, such as brake pipes in the engine compartment. So again, this doesn't look like an additional burden on the tester. In the pre-computerisation days, testers often (wrongly) failed vehicles for insecure batteries, so they must have been looking at them then! Now, it means that when we implement the new Directive, vehicles can legitimately fail for battery insecurity, for no extra tester effort.Other items – such as headlamp bulb and unit incompatibility, headlamp levelling devices and illegal engine 'chipping' – will need further thought before we can get a workable solution for MOT stations."
:huh: :clap: :mfr_lol: well I did asked :wink:
Quote from: 2kwacks on September 05, 2012, 08:44:10 PM
:huh: :clap: :mfr_lol: well I did asked :wink:
:mfr_lol: :mfr_lol:
Ive just fitted a set of HID Lights.. Not going to change them but I will change my blue side light bulbs back to white :mfr_lol:
Quote from: Gonome on September 05, 2012, 11:26:17 AM
I fitted blue LED bulbs in my middle running lights at the weekend and right on cue was stopped by a traffic policeman today. He was very pleasant, but left me in no doubt that if I did not change them back to white bulbs the next time he sees me he will issue a ticket. Now I have understood by following several threads on here that they are perfectly legal and do not cause anyone else problems either with the police or during MOT's. My question to all you black rats and barrack room lawers is did he have a legal arguement or was he just irritated because he felt I was impersonating a police officer, which I definitely was not? We have all seen instances of those that do and any additions to my bike are only in the interest of being more visable and therefore, hopefully safer. All in all it was not a big problem as we had a good chat and being a biker himself he was very interested in the GTR, but I still have a niggling suspicion that he was on dodgy ground from a legal perspective.
do you have anything else on your bike that was a bit policey, such as reflectors or even the polite jacket.
question, why do people want blue lights anyway ??
Hi Debs, did the HID lights make much of a difference to the standard bulbs?
PS.... That multimeter must be getting a lot of use!
ummmm!,when i bought my gtr last year,(its black,the best colour n fastest of course :banana:), i wanted to be seen !!!, so i bought 2 sets of bullet lights,fitted underside of the mirrors,and just inside the nose cone,(scoops,under the headlights), looks fab and are bionic!! :yes:,
Then someone on here said they had fitted the blue side lights to there bike,so i hit ebay and bougt some,(about £3.50 with post),fitted um and they are brill,,,,,
talking to a copper a while back,a guy who i did my bike safe with,an he said bloody hell those lights are bright!!!,,,,they look good to mate,where did you get um ,wouldnt mind some my self?,,
M.O.T. was due about month ago,,so they have been on the bike for over a year now,,,mot done,n dusted!!!
think some coppers are just pricks!!!,nit picking ones at tha too!!!,just depends on who or where you are i suppose,,,,mine will be staying on until or when i get pulled!!!!,,,fook um :yes:
Hmmmm blue lights....
are they strictly blue, or are they white, with a colour temperature of 6k upwards? Which look like blue?
:-)
Neil
jenros, youre probably right some Coppers might be 'pricks' but then so can some bikers be. I came across this recently, the owner was a really nice guy but he couldn't understand why he had been stopped by traffic Police near Squires in Leeds. He thought his number plate was perfectly visible. If your'e going to fit something that might not be 100% above board, at least do it discreetly! :mfr_lol:
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/Jaffa_Cake101/Fingers/DSCN0852.jpg)
hi lonewolf!,hows things???, see what you mean about "some bikers"" lol.
well that guy was just asking to be pulled,,,,did he really think he was legal with that????,i would imagine in low light he could get away with murder,just thinking,,,,theres obviously no number plate light either on that is there???.
nice try i suppose thou :cheesy:
He told me that the Copper told him to sort it but didn't do him for it, I think he was very fortunate!
Quote from: shaggs147 on September 05, 2012, 10:28:19 PM
Hi Debs, did the HID lights make much of a difference to the standard bulbs?
PS.... That multimeter must be getting a lot of use!
Just been out on baby to see what they are like. I cant remember what they were like before but they do seem a lot brighter.. The one thing Ive now noticed is my spot lights now go off when I switch to Main Beam. The power for the HID Lights [besides the existing bulb connection] is through the accessories lead on the left hand side.. They never went off with the Halogen bulbs so im now confused :wacko: Hmmmm
Just been thinking. The spots were wired in by Bournemouth Kawasaki. Maybe they did go off when I switched to Main Beam... :wacko: :mfr_lol:
Calling your bike 'Baby' just doesn't sound right!!!!! :nono:
Quote from: Lonewolf on September 06, 2012, 01:46:04 AM
Calling your bike 'Baby' just doesn't sound right!!!!! :nono:
Why not? She is my baby :yes: She has taken me to many places :banana:
Quote from: viper on September 05, 2012, 08:58:17 PM
do you have anything else on your bike that was a bit policey, such as reflectors or even the polite jacket.
question, why do people want blue lights anyway ??
I have a white helmet does that count? I have no asperations to imitate the police and certainly no hidden dreams of becoming one (I could not afford the drop in salary) I do however try to make myself as visible as posible given the volume of traffic we have in the south, and even then there is always some :asshole: who does not see my, hence the blue bulbs.
I say if you've got non standard lights on the GTR, even blue ones and you can get away with it then why not?
On the scale of things I doubt anyone would be that bothered.
:stupid:
So why was I stopped?
Quote from: Gonome on September 06, 2012, 09:33:35 AM
So why was I stopped?
Possibly because the Copper who stopped you was a prick and had nothing better to do! :popcorn:
Quote from: Gonome on September 06, 2012, 09:33:35 AM
So why was I stopped?
He wanted to admire your bike.
Which is not good cause to stop you, but then he saw your blue lights??
Quote from: dokterdave on September 06, 2012, 01:37:58 PM
He wanted to admire your bike.
Which is not good cause to stop you, but then he saw your blue lights??
Sounds about right given the length of our conversation about a multitude of topics including this Forum, of which he was very familiar. Just what you need when on your way to work. :mfr_lol:
Quote from: Gonome on September 06, 2012, 01:52:49 PM
Sounds about right given the length of our conversation about a multitude of topics including this Forum, of which he was very familiar. Just what you need when on your way to work. :mfr_lol:
When I said he was probably a prick I actually meant he was probably a very fine gent indeed and sharp as a needle......... :whistling:
Quote from: Lonewolf on September 06, 2012, 02:13:24 PM
When I said he was probably a prick I actually meant he was probably a very fine gent indeed and sharp as a needle......... :whistling:
:mfr_lol: :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol:
That did make me chuckle.. :mfr_lol:
I have my moments! :mfr_lol: That's another hole I've dug myself, doh!
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/Jaffa_Cake101/Fingers/Digginghole.jpg)
Quote from: Gonome on September 06, 2012, 09:33:35 AM
So why was I stopped?
Maybe he thought you looked lovely :tongue: :flowers: :tt2: :tt1: :wub: :001_icon16: :winkiss: :kiss:
Quote from: 100milesaway on September 06, 2012, 09:51:36 PM
Maybe he thought you looked lovely :tongue: :flowers: :tt2: :tt1: :wub: :001_icon16: :winkiss: :kiss:
:mfr_lol: Good job I was not wearing pink armbands :banana:
My take on it is this ......
I was under the impression that the only time you're going to encounter a problem is if the lights are flashing or strobing... that's an instant offence.
A few years ago it used to be a fad for boy racers to put blue lights on the bonnet of their cars where the water outlets attach , or under the grille, and at the time that was dealt with by use of a £30 ticket...
Cops have mellowed a bit lately..... Still wouldn't consider one of those blue headlamp covers though.... and personally can't see the point of putting blue LED lights on the bike either.
I think it's the luck of the draw if you get stopped or not... but my view is why give them the ammunition :cool:
But what would I know.... I've only just retired from the cops and have spent the last 17 years on the bike section :wheelchair:
Oh no, not another one! :mfr_lol:
Quote from: Gonome on September 07, 2012, 08:43:44 AM
Oh no, not another one! :mfr_lol:
Past life now... :laugh:
never seen a forum with so many bike cops ,
Bryn, congratulations on escaping! Six years left with this one yet :undecided:
Quote from: Lonewolf on September 07, 2012, 09:10:16 AM
Bryn, congratulations on escaping! Six years left with this one yet :undecided:
It'll fly by ..... hopefully you will mostly miss the pension changes :rolleyes:
I certainly hope so!
:police:
I have now changed my blue side lights back to ultra bright white led lights :whistling: :mfr_lol:
2 things .... Bryn ... nicely done .. 4 years on Tuesday and I'll be gone. :smiley: :smiley:
Lights .. the new Osram "Night Breakers" that Tapps put up .. brilliant ! Rode home earlier in the dark and it was like having a football stadium in front of me .... lights everywhere ! Nice and WHITE .....
Quote from: Lonewolf on September 06, 2012, 02:13:24 PM
When I said he was probably a prick I actually meant he was probably a very fine gent indeed and sharp as a needle......... :whistling:
ROFL.....
PRICK?
Proud Responsible Informative Constable with Knowledge ?
Quote from: Winston Smith on September 09, 2012, 04:24:24 AM
PRICK?
Proud Responsible Informative Constable with Knowledge ?
Or put another way, just a knob end!
Gonome, traffic legislation is a nightmare and a lot of the time is open to interpretation of the officer and courts.
You can not have flashing blue lights , you can not have dummy blue lights that look like emergency lights.
Steady tiny blue LED's are neither.
A CPS decision was made on this a couple of years back taken from case law. This was because of the amount of cars now fitting blue side light bulbs and these blue LED windscreen washers jet thingies.
It was decided that anything that changed the perceived size of a vehicle was an offence, ie unable to detect the size of a car when only side lights on because their not normal and blue.
The windscreen washer ones are ok
As the GTR has a big bright headlight either side that won't apply .
So it goes back to personal interpretation of what constitutes an emergency blue light. Id give that a run at court because you can only see them close up and they do not resemble anything fitted to an emergency vehicle.
Dont mention solid white lines or I'm likely to go off on one...... :whistling:
Quote from: Lonewolf on September 09, 2012, 10:00:23 PM
Dont mention solid white lines or I'm likely to go off on one...... :whistling:
Steve," if you do "go off on one" do you plan to take your inner bags with you :oops:
Quote from: olde coney on September 10, 2012, 07:38:27 AM
Steve," if you do "go off on one" do you plan to take your inner bags with you :oops:
You mean you can get inner bags for the panniers? :oops: now youv'e :censored: started something.....
Oh Lord ... here we go again .......... :sleep1: :sleep1:
With the demise of Hein Gericke the inner bags may well become a collectors item. Now, does the passing of one the HG inner bags over a white solid line constitute an offence?
Quote from: Winston Smith on September 10, 2012, 05:44:30 PM
With the demise of Hein Gericke the inner bags may well become a collectors item. Now, does the passing of one the HG inner bags over a white solid line constitute an offence?
Some of the shops have been bought out.... the one in Leicester is staying open and being re-stocked by Hein Gericke Wednesday :yes:
Bryn - this is a long ongoing situation...........eh Steve? :mfr_lol:
Quote from: Winston Smith on September 10, 2012, 08:58:51 PM
Bryn - this is a long ongoing situation...........eh Steve? :mfr_lol:
Understatement of the year I would say Chris :mfr_lol:
I'm keeping stum!