Yep, filtering or lane splitting as its sometimes called. I had an email yesterday from the bike coordinator of our local RoSPA group and in and amongst a few other things he mentioned that there had recently been a court case involving filtering. No other details at this time but I was wondering, is anyone familiar with the case he is referring to? I'm hoping to get to their monthly meet this evening at Wakefield, providing I'm not too busy at work. It is apparantly one of the topics which is going to be discussed.
Any ideas anyone?
Be interested here more details if you get em LR
I did hear that the plod were using the ASBO law to cover 'agressive filtering' as it could be deemed an 'anti social act', but i'm fairly sure that if they wanted the plod could do you for 'driving without due consideration for other road users'.
Hopefully the rider concerned got good legal cover as usually when you go before the courts you get judged by a school teacher, a housewife and a retired major. All of which think Bikers should be taken outside and flogged.
Not illegal if carried out correctly, as Highway Code describes, but there is a distinction apparently between filtering and lane splitting, and according to my local force it's speed. Sadly like so much it's open to interpretation.
I don't believe there is anything wrong personally with filtering unless of course it is done in an inconsiderate and aggressive manner. Yes, speed is something which is taken into consideration whilst filtering if it all goes wrong but there is no maximum figure in writing which is deemed to be acceptable.
It's that old chestnut, everything is open to interpretation based on all the other factors present at the time, type of road, width of road, weather, general visibility, speed of other vehicles, speed of your vehicle relative to the other vehicles, your visibility, likelihood of other vehicles having to change lanes in anticipation of approaching junctions, other visible hazards, hazards which may not yet be apparant, etc, the list goes on and on.
I don't see how the ASBO policy can be connected to filtering, if anything you'd get a S59 warning for due care. There is however talk of a ticket in the pipeline for due care which I don't think is a good idea because it could be open to abuse dependant on who was permitted to issue it.
Spot on Mr Wolf, as always .
I do despair though, it's all new regs and tickets but there is no one to enforce them , counted the number of people on their phone yesterday. Over a 70 mile journey to work, 78!, and that's just the ones I saw.
Cartman, 78 on their phone, holy smoke!!
I can laugh about it now but I wasn't laughing at the time. I once nearly got shafted big style at work for the way I dealt with someone who was on their phone and nearly knocked me down along with three others. Anyway I digress ;D
Slightly off-topic...
Are the panniers wider than the mirrors? Anyone clonked 'em on anything while performing said filtering / lane splitting manoeuvres?
not had any scrapes while filtering yet, think mirrors just top it but sure it that wrong an oracle with a tape measure will correct my simple self :-X
A mon avis .... for what it's worth .... I think the ASBO bit is Bollox to be honest .. just can't see anyone at CPS writing that one up ;D
This whole issue brings into question 2 points for me.
1. The whole subject of filtering is just so subjective that you could show a bit of video of said filtering to several different " experts " for example.... Traffic Officers, ROSPA examiners, barristers and they would all give you a different view as to wether it was anti social or dangerous or careless .... It really would not be worth following that one through the courts as you could guarantee that wether found proved or not the other side would appeal against conviction time and time again until a Crown Court Judge knocked it on the head to stop wasting public time and money or the other party just gave up.
2. The officer who has instigated this has better have a good case as to why he didn't go down the lines of a much simpler Sec 59 there and then ... that to me is what that particular legislation was bought in for ... sort things out on the spot there and then.
There you have it, according to Rusty ;D
Well having just got back from the RoSPA meet this evening it would appear that there is now a new train of thought in respect of blame worthyness re filtering and then having an off as a result of a sucessful Crown Court appeal from 2011.
Let me have a read through it all to make sure I have my facts right and to digest it and then I'll put some info on here for peoples thoughts. It makes interesting reading though and may just make you stop and consider whether you really want to filter the next time an opportuunity presents itself.
This is going to create an awful lot of typing .... you know that don't you ? ;D
There will be an update tomorrow after Ive finished my last shift, I'm too knackered now.
Quote from: Lonewolf on October 26, 2011, 01:05:18 AM
..... No other details at this time but I was wondering, is anyone familiar with the case he is referring to?
Posted by a friendly forum accident investigator on another forum I frequent, not sure if this is the same case that your RoSPA contact was referring to. Looks like common sense to me, if we are filtering on our bikes, we *should* exhibit caution and not feel we can filter at speed with impunity.
Martin.
Quote
Until now, Davis v Scroggins (2006) has been the authority that has helped filtering riders claim 100% liability in filtering crashes. This case was particularly relevant as the filtering rider was travelling at speed despite the fact that he was travelling in excess of 50MPH whilst filtering.
However, yesterday a new case was reported on appeal where because of the high speed, the rider was held 80% liable with the car driver held only 20% liable.
Whilst filtering cases have to be judged on merit, and if speed is kept to a reasonable level it should make no difference, just be aware that there is now a new weapon in the defendants armoury.
BURTON v EVITT (2011)
CA (Civ Div) (Sir Anthony May (President QBD), Black LJ, Kitchin LJ) 18/10/2011
PERSONAL INJURY - ROAD TRAFFIC
APPORTIONMENT : DRIVERS : MOTORCYCLES : ROAD TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS : APPORTIONMENT OF LIABILITY : INABILITY OF DRIVER TO SEE BEHIND VEHICLE WHEN DRIVING
A driver was found to be 20 per cent liable for a road traffic accident caused when he turned whilst being unable to see an approaching motorcycle being driven quickly and overtaking other vehicles. Where a driver was unable to see what was behind him it was necessary for him to inch out to gain a better view.
The appellant (E) appealed against a decision that he had been negligent and was one-third responsible for a road traffic accident involving E and the respondent (B). E was driving his car at the front of a queue of traffic. He slowed down, looked in his mirror and saw nothing except a larger vehicle behind him. E, when almost at a standstill, then started to turn right into a car park. The driver of the vehicle behind E then saw a motorcycle, driven by B, at the corner of his vehicle, overtaking. B drove forwards, collided with E's car and sustained severe injuries. At trial the judge found that B was driving at an unsafe speed and in such a way that he could not deal with an emergency and so was negligent. However, it was also found that it was E's duty to move his car closer to, and perhaps over, the centre of the line in the road so that, using his wing mirror, he could have seen B approaching and that E's failure to do so meant that he was causatively responsible for the accident. It was found that B was two-thirds responsible and E one-third responsible for the accident. E submitted that although any driver should have been aware of any other driver overtaking on the outside, he had slowed down and checked just before he turned and, to require more, was a counsel of perfection.
HELD: (1) It was common ground that in driving along such a road, there was a need to be particularly aware of the presence of motorcycles and that they might overtake lines of cars. E initially acted with considerable care but, when crawling, he could not see what might be coming up on the offside. As the size of the vehicle behind E's car meant that E could not see clearly, he should have inched out. Where a driver could not see what was behind him, he had to take that step. E's appeal in respect of negligence was therefore unsuccessful. (2) B's negligence was of a very high order and contributed to what happened. The issue of blameworthiness of E and B required greater analysis than it received. Proper apportionment had to take into account the different negligence issues in respect of E and B. It was appropriate to set aside the trial judge's apportionment and replace it with apportionment that B was 80 per cent and E 20 per cent liable.
Appeal allowed in part
So word of warning guys, be carefull with your speed when filtering
I'm not so sure I would call this a case of filtering.
Sounds more like a dangerous overtaking manoeuvre that went bad to me.
If the car driver indicated he wanted to turn right I'd say it wasn't his fault at all and the biker shouldn't have tried to overtake him.
If he didn't indicate he would be partly at fault, though.
The biker should nevertheless have expected that the car at the front of the queue wanted to turn right, taken more care and he would still be OK.
Even if he thought it was "unexpected" behaviour for a car slowing down before a carpark entrance on the right with oncoming traffic ;D ;D
He should have asked himself, 'why did that car slow down to cause the queue?'
If this would have been a multiple choice question it would probably look like this
a) it has broken down - so I have to expect that the lorry behind it will pull out in front of me once there is a gap in oncoming traffic.
b) he wants to turn into the carpark on the right - so he will pull out as well once there is a gap.
c) there is some sort of obstacle in front of him that I can't see because of the lorry - same as above.
d) Any one of the above
e) Everyone has seen me and thinks I am Valentino Rossi. They will admire me speeding past them - open up the throttle and give em all a thrill.
Mr B obviously thought option e) was the right answer and found out the hard way that he was wrong.
My reaction - slow down, keep an eye on the front wheel of the car in front of you and prepare to hit the brakes at any time.
It's absolute madness to speed past a potentially dangerous spot like that.
We don't just need a Think Bike! but also a Biker Think! campaign.
While we are at the subject of filtering.
I saw a documentary on TV the other day about how our brains filter information.
Their is a flood of signals bombarding the brain at any time, but it can only process a limited amount of data in a given time frame.
One of the mechanisms to solve that conflict is for the brain to suppress irrelevant signals.
That's why most people miss the guy in the gorilla suit walking through the picture when they concentrate on the action in the foreground and car drivers literally don't see a bike when they turn because they are only looking for other cars.
Interesting to know the next time somebody says, 'I really didn't see you'. They are probably telling you the truth.
I got tugged in Oct 2009.
I was riding down the A13 filtering through traffic.
The traffic was doing about 20Mph and I was moving between 30 and 35.
Then the traffic gradually sped up and I ended up doing a slow slalom at speeds up to 65Mph (traffic was doing 50-60).
I saw a bike approaching me behind so I pulled over to let him pass (some of the riders on the A13 make me look pathetically slow) but it was a Police bike and he blue&two-ed me.
Straight away I admitted to riding like a twat and got a rider awareness course instead of points & fine.
The office said that at no point was I dangerous but other peoples reactions to my riding could have been dangerous.
He told me that below 30 they generally ignore lanesplitters (unless they are total twats).
Above 30 they will let people get away with it if they are smooth and obviously in control.
Above 50 he said he knicks every lanesplitter he sees.
Said he has had to help scrape too many bikers off the undersides of trucks to not do it.
I have to admit that I enjoyed the rider awareness course and I did learn something.
I learned that I'm nowhere near as good as I think I am.
I learned that I need to watch my mirrors more often when lanesplitting/filtering, especially for Police bikes.
I learned that there are bigger twats than me out there on motorcycles, and I don't mean physically bigger either.
In fact one passed me this morning on a GSXR at about 110Mph and then shot between a car and a van. We were doing 85. Utter twat! ::)
Martin, yes that is the case I was referring to. That has now set a new benchmark for all future cases of filtering especially where substantial claims are made for damages as a result of serious injury sustained as was the case in this matter.
There is a distiction mecki between ovetaking and filtering....albeit a small one and again each incident has to be viewed on its own merits. This riders actions were viewed to constitute filtering not overtaking and that was based on the fact that he passed a large number of vehicles simultaneously as opposed to passing three or four, then finding his gap and tucking in and then repeating the process over and over again. The latter it would seem is viewed as overtaking the former as filtering. A fine line perhaps between the two principles but nevertheless a distinction which has been defined by the courts.
The reason that neither biker nor car driver saw each other is that each were hidden from each other by the larger HGV immediatley behind the car. A very common scenario if wer'e honest.
Thanks LW for explaining the legal difference.
I have lived most of my life in countries where filtering (line splitting) is illegal (Germany and New Zealand).
Up to now I thought filtering was passing between 2 lines of traffic moving in the same direction while passing a line of traffic on the outside was overtaking.
I was actually not aware that in this country I have to watch out for idiots trying to "filter" past me on the right even when I am indicating and get done if they hit me.
Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.
It's got to be common sense..filter slowly as it's fraught with Dangers any how. If done in bullying way then yes it's wrong. If you ride steady & dont touch the Brakes as the flash of rear Brake lights can cause irritations as if not at stand still cars will hit brakes. Red light it like Red Rag to Bull. I find most drivers very helpfull & pull over if they can. Some even go to extreme lengths & nearly end up in Ditch.
I think you are allowed to cross the Double white lines if very very slow. You see many a Car following Tractors doing 15mph & stay behind them as it's a Double white line.
Well said Zedman .. just go slowly ;D
When some drivers see you coming down the outside and move over for you I ALWAYS stick my hand up and give them a " thank you " wave/nod on the premis that if a little further up the road you get knocked off you might just get one of those drivers that you waved at stopping to help you .. In my view if it has the potential to help then do it.
mecki, it used to be, prior to this latest sucessful appeal in the Crown Court that if a vehicle turned across the path of a biker which was filtering causing an accident the car driver was 100% liable. In this new appeal the bike rider was found to be 80% to blame and the car driver 20% to blame.
As we discussed last night though, when your'e laying in the road breathing your last breath does it really matter whose at fault, it's too late then. Avoid the incident in the first instance. It would appear that a figure of 10-15mph is deemed more than sufficient to filter past stationary traffic. This particular biker was doing 50mph.
50 is too quick to " filter " !!!! ... As the word illustrates .... just drip through the traffic... you don't drip at 50 ;D
Quotemecki, it used to be, prior to this latest sucessful appeal in the Crown Court that if a vehicle turned across the path of a biker which was filtering causing an accident the car driver was 100% liable. In this new appeal the bike rider was found to be 80% to blame and the car driver 20% to blame.
You're pulling my leg, right?
So if I want to turn right, put my indicators on, move to the middle of the road and wait for a gap in oncoming traffic, some twat on a bike who decides to "filter" past me while I'm turning has the right of way and I am guilty if he hits me as long as he's not going to fast?
And then bikers are complaining being disadvantaged by the law?
BTW since I hardly ever drive a car these days, does that apply to bikes turning right too?
Jeez - I wouldn't pass a vehicle that is indicating to turn right on the outside - That's not only risky it's just plain stupid! :o
Whoever sits in that car will be focussed on the other direction and take the first opportunity to move - Ouch!
Even if the oncoming traffic is very thick, what if somebody has a heart, stops and signals the driver to turn?
Or he decides to inch a bit more out to let the van behind him through on the left - Ouch again!
Wow - up to now I thought line splitting was only a more or less tolerated activity in this country, but that you actually have the right-of-way...
I thought it was a grey area and as long as I don't ride like a twat the fuzz would just temporarily look the other way and not bother.
The mind boggles.
Which leads me to another question. Overtaking on the inside lane on dual carriage ways.
And I don't mean filtering or a queue in the left lane moving faster than the one on the right.
Another potentially very expensive activity (at least outside of city limits and on motorways) in most countries (don't try this on the Autobahn!).
If I have some twat Audi driver doing 65 in the right hand lane in front of me and the left lane is empty am I allowed to pass him on the left?
see this months Bike magazine, there is an article on various ways to get past a 'fast lane hogger' and the word 'undertake' is used several times.
undertaking, as I see it, in most situations is a tad daft and i do try to avoid doing it as car drivers never check the left mirror before pulling back over and on the whole the plod have a very dim view of you doing it.
I mean so your defence goes sumit like..... 'well this twat was in the outside lane doing 70 mph so i pulled up behind him and flashed me lights'....keep digging... ' when he didn't move i dropped a gear'.... new shovel please....'swerved across to the inside lane'......nearly at the bottom....' flicked him the Vs and nailed it'...... knock knock found the coffin then.
Kerching.... speeding and dangerous driving.... we have a winner..
Oh and the ASBO thing was used by North yorkshire plod several times in 2009.... before the CPS told 'em to give it a rest.
I live in North london and to be honest anything other than slow and polite filtering, usually done with my Hazards on, is a fookin scary thing to do. cos the fookers see you coming and tend to move in to block you rather than the other way.
Quote from: Mogster on October 28, 2011, 02:12:28 PM
I live in North london and to be honest anything other than slow and polite filtering, usually done with my Hazards on, is a fookin scary thing to do. cos the fookers see you coming and tend to move in to block you rather than the other way.
Doesn't seem to be that bad up North.
But wait until you get to France.
There they nearly drive off the road to make way if they spot a bike in the mirror. ;D
Except the tourists of course. :-[
Quote from: mecki on October 28, 2011, 02:25:40 PM
Doesn't seem to be that bad up North.
But wait until you get to France.
There they nearly drive off the road to make way if they spot a bike in the mirror. ;D
Except the tourists of course. :-[
ah La Belle France, le trafic est très courtois!!
My Sister lives near Le Mans so we are over there as much as possible, filtering is a doddle on the odd time you come up against some traffic, tis like a parting of the red sea. ;D
Quote from: mecki on October 28, 2011, 12:39:45 PM
You're pulling my leg, right? NO
So if I want to turn right, put my indicators on, move to the middle of the road and wait for a gap in oncoming traffic, some twat on a bike who decides to "filter" past me while I'm turning has the right of way and I am guilty if he hits me as long as he's not going to fast? HE WOULDNT HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY BUT IF YOU HIT HIM BECAUSE YOU DIDNT SEE HIM THEN PREVIOUSLY YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN DEEMED 100 % RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RTC AND THEIR INJURIES. DUE TO THE MOST RECENT CASE YOU COULD STILL HAVE SIGNIFICANT BLAME ATTRIBUTED TO YOU BUT ITS NOT BLACK & WHITE. EACH CASE ON ITS OWN MERITS.
And then bikers are complaining being disadvantaged by the law?
BTW since I hardly ever drive a car these days, does that apply to bikes turning right too? THIS WOULD BE DOWN TO THE COURTS TO DECIDE BUT THE ANSWER IS PROBABLY YES, BIKERS SHOULD STILL BE AWARE OF VEHICLES WHICH ARE OVERTAKING OR FILTERING PAST THEM
Jeez - I wouldn't pass a vehicle that is indicating to turn right on the outside - That's not only risky it's just plain stupid! :o
Whoever sits in that car will be focussed on the other direction and take the first opportunity to move - Ouch!
Even if the oncoming traffic is very thick, what if somebody has a heart, stops and signals the driver to turn? MAKE SURE NOTHINGS COMING UP BEHIND YOU
Or he decides to inch a bit more out to let the van behind him through on the left - Ouch again!
Wow - up to now I thought line splitting was only a more or less tolerated activity in this country, but that you actually have the right-of-way...
I thought it was a grey area and as long as I don't ride like a twat the fuzz would just temporarily look the other way and not bother.
The mind boggles.
Which leads me to another question. Overtaking on the inside lane on dual carriage ways. A DEFINATE NO, NO
And I don't mean filtering or a queue in the left lane moving faster than the one on the right.
Another potentially very expensive activity (at least outside of city limits and on motorways) in most countries (don't try this on the Autobahn!).
If I have some twat Audi driver doing 65 in the right hand lane in front of me and the left lane is empty am I allowed to pass him on the left? NO
Something I never do when driving four wheels is flash my lights to let some one out junction or cross path infront of me. I will hang back & give them the option. If you flash they see it as you giving them automatic right of way & won't consider Motor cyclist or cyclist on inside or motor bike outside. They will just go without looking for any one else.
If your on your bike you obviously have to be aware of this too so go even slower when filtering near junctions.
I'm with Ziderman on the headlight flashing. By trying to be kind, you could end up contributing to the cause of a collision and be held partly to blame!
When I was was doing my IAM observer training, we had an associate who misread a headlight flash and nearly got in serious trouble. It was reiterated in no uncertain terms in a group meeting later that the headlight and the horn are there to make other road users aware of your presence. They can easily be misread if used for any other purpose, including being seen as aggression. Also with a lot of modern cars, they can appear to flash when they go over bumps which again can be misread so the safest thing is to question why they might be flashing and not take it for granted that its for your benefit.
On the risk taking front in traffic, one thing to remember is 'if I don't do this I might get there a minute later; if I do it and it goes wrong I might not get there at all, so does an extra minute matter?'
Thanks LW, that said it loud and clear.
I still wouldn't recommend overtaking a car that is turning right even if I can get a new bike if I manage to hit him. ;)
I probably filter most days. Over time I've come up with a set of rules:
1. Filter between the 2nd and fast lane.
2. If a gap appears slow down. Some car driver will have seen it as well and will go for it
3. Don't filter when traffic is above 35
4. Filter according to conditions e.g. Rain, fog etc
5. Watch the front wheel of cars
6. At motorway junctions, be prepared for cars switching lanes
7. Be visible. My bike is distinct at the front and rear, plus I generally wear a high vis jacket.
8. Use the noise from the exhaust to alert dozy drivers
9. Be wary of filtering between trucks
10. Some drivers will be cocks and deliberately obstruct. Be patient and don't get aggressive.
11. Narrow lanes = no filtering
12. You will make mistakes. Learn from them
13. There maybe other bikes filtering. If you're the lead bike and the bike behind is being aggressive, pull in and let them lead. You'll find that they'll create filtering space for you.
14. Acknowledge cars that move over.
yup thems rules sound about the same as mine 8) ... I also tend to flick me hazards on when coming through stationary traffic. tis sumit that we picked up when riding in Europe.
Obviously the best way to gain a drivers attention is to have a 'Wig-Wam' switch fitted... but that's illegal and we wouldn't do that would we... *snigger* ::)
Good rules. Especially employing rule 5 is very important.
The front wheel is always the first thing to show you that a car is about to move into your path.
If you ever have the misfortune having to drive through Antwerp (just avoid it!!!) you may encounter several lanes filled with trucks trying to get to the port for miles and miles moving at snail's pace.
I have to say that was one of the scariest filtering I've ever done and why I strongly recommend to avoid getting anywhere near that place.
What you mean filtering at Motor way Junctions..as you go onto M way or on the M way...surely that's a big no no , full stop. Only if very heavy slow moving traffic , surely?
Be wary of filtering between trucks...be wary of filtering between all traffic surely ?
Not being funny , but all in your comprehensive list is a lot to take in is it not. It really all comes into your general awareness & riding plan does it not & as we all should know , that changes all the time.
In my opinion & it's my opinion only ! list are flawed..It reads like a Braking Distance chart.. & who the F**k is going to take notice of the Braking Distance & speed while there hurtling towards car in-front. Never goes through your mind..~All your concerned about is that you are far enough behind to stop safely if you have too. You don't start thinking 30 m at 40mph etc so I am safe, do you?
But all said & done it's a good list & if it works for you & helps others , fine.
when on motorway I tend to be cautious filtering near junctions and that is only when the traffic is slow.
the list is a list of things that happen instinctively. I don't manually check everything in my head! As you say, it forms part of your riding plan.
Sure...good... I just have a big hate of lists..comes from two Marriages....do this do that....You know what I mean.
Mind I was cross few years ago when I did IAM & Devon lot were insistent that you memorized Braking distances for Test as Examiner was a Stickler for them. Then because of my post Code being somerset at the time I got Somerset Examiner who not once mentioned them, much too my delight, not that could not remember them , just did not much see the point.
Guess this is the good thing about Forums..loads of really good stuff put into the Think Tank. Nice to think some will go away with info on here & be much safer & indeed help save a life may be..
I dont ever think any one person is right , but if you all chuck your thoughts in the pot then great sense & wisdom comes up in the Brew...+ the us-hall silliness to keep us amused. Long may it last...!
Real life is not an exam because if you flunk it you're dead!
Just look at the list and ask yourself, 'do I do that too?'
And if you find a point where your answer is No you should ask yourself, 'wouldn't it be better if I did that as well?'
Nobody expects you to print it and pin it on your screen like a pilot's check list.
And if you have other points you think should be on that list too then let us know.
Well, and as far as braking distances go, I guess you'll find out that you're gut feeling was either right or wrong when it comes to the real thing.
I've never been able to remember braking or thinking distances, does that make me a bad person? :-\
Quote from: Lonewolf on October 30, 2011, 10:21:18 AM
I've never been able to remember braking or thinking distances, does that make me a bad person? :-\
Only a fool breaks the two second rule!
Hi all, just joined the website, just bought GTR, interesting subjects under discussion, but a little concerned about some of the questions being asked, surely some of these are basic issues?
For those who have not furthered their training since gaining their license i would suggest the answers are within the RoSPA training, "Use the force" (Police Force that is!)
I have been riding for 20 years Commuting, Touring, Track Days, Off Road, you name it i still do it, i commute to the city every day (passing 44 cameras everyday) and a while back during period of sleep deprivation (Dads out there know what i mean!) i managed to clock up 17 points in 3 months! long story short, found an amazing solicitor, a number of mitigating circumstances, crown conditions and completion of RoSPA training (my own omission as a gesture of good will) i managed to keep my license.
Due to my age and experience i believed there was nothing more to learn, and to be fair there wasn't really much more but the ability to be constructively self critical and that riding attitude is key to the delivery of your riding skills, plus a refresher on the rules of the road goes a long way, i enjoyed the training, it was as exciting as taking my test for the first time.
For me the most satisfying element of traffic riding now is knowing your right, not believing and being flexible to give way to others right or wrong.
Court cases are in progress all the time and do affect the laws in place, but these individual cases are solicitors manipulation of the perception of facts and don't directly translate to the road, just because someone else has done something doesn't mean you can.
Ok Preeching over, this i know from experience, Filtering is moving through stationary traffic, anything else is under/ overtaking, the person a head travelling in the same direction has right of way, on coming traffic has right of way, yes you can filter and it is tollerated to a degree, but measured by Traffic Officers personal judgement by the effect you have on other road users, if your actions cause others to act or be put a risk your in the wrong its as simple as that.
Cars turning right? the oldest and most common one in the book i think?
GTR 1400 best bike in the world for RoSPA training and the odd fling!
Quote from: Rehabilitated36 on October 31, 2011, 08:49:52 PM
GTR 1400 best bike in the world for RoSPA training and the odd fling!
Bloody hell does your mrs know!!! :o ;D ;D ;D
I am fortunate enough to have one that doesn't give a s#!t, as long she has her chelsea tractor and so called mates, im happy!
QuoteHi all, just joined the website, just bought GTR, interesting subjects under discussion, but a little concerned about some of the questions being asked, surely some of these are basic issues?
Pray tell me/us what questions you are concerned about exactly. Reading through all looks like were all singing from the same Hym sheet are we not?
Most of us have had some or lots of Advanced training , so we are aware of such things.....!
I personally did not like ROSPA & chose IAM..that's my choice. Not that impressed with them either , but that's another story....
Like I said...no one person is necessarily right , but put all the ideas in the Pot & good will Brew...
So...be not concerned....!
For the record I am a matter of weeks away from being 50...I have had Bikes since I was 14....so got fair bit experience under my belt..not that much can fit under my Belt now that is....
Hi Good to meet you Ziderman!
Thought my comments might spark some interest, i like a good debate! may be "concerned" is the wrong choice of word, but Turning Right, Undertaking, basics im sure you cannot deny, and not questions you'd expect to be made by experienced riders, something i believed the GTR market would be?
More to the point new/ unknowledgeable riders will take specific comments from the more experienced literally with view to self improvement and in offering that advice lies some due dilegence as an experienced rider.
RoSPA Vs IAM - i think the RoSPA is far more reasonable and comprehensive than the IAM, but alas the quality of training is with the instructor as much as the pupil, coming from a long background of what i now call ASBO riding i found the RoSPA riding course good therapy and believe in furthering knowledge and application of skills, RoSPA and IAM are the only official ways to do it with measured accreditation.
I don't think the advanced course are designed to impress, but to be embraced as it is a good system, as you know there are no magic tricks or special skills but personal thought and attitude, it works for the Police and in majority do lead by example, im sure many may have the odd falter, but no ones perfect.
Id avoid discouraging others from further Training, more knowledge and practise has to be worth while, as reformed smokers are the worst anti smoking preachers, im the same with training, especially with the amount of accidents i see in and around London that should of been avoided is frustrating.
Id like to know what your likes and dislikes are with the RoSPA and IAM Training?
I may sound it, but im not entirely pro RoSPA/ IAM but other than self experience what else is there between the initial test training and further training to enlighten riders to improve themselves?
Thoughts?
Quote from: Rehabilitated36 on November 01, 2011, 06:39:09 PM
but Turning Right, Undertaking, basics im sure you cannot deny, and not questions you'd expect to be made by experienced riders, something i believed the GTR market would be?
Now, because I was the one who asked these stupid questions, I want to set the record straight.
I just couldn't believe it when I read on this forum that a "filtering" biker had the right of way and another motorist who is indicating and turning right and gets hit by this biker would be in the wrong.
I am not British and have only been living in the UK for close to 4 years and am again and again surprised what goes for law around here.
I asked about "undertaking" because I thought if a country has such stupid rules about what in every other country is considered to be illegal overtaking or dangerous driving they may have similar stupid rules when it comes to that.
And since there are quite a lot of members here who are the law I thought I better ask.
Now whom am I to believe?
The seasoned policeman or the newbie who managed to collect 17 points in 3 months? ??? :P :-X
Hi Rehabilitate36 ...It was some years ago when I started down ROSPA route..it was getting very very expensive. So I just opted for the one stop option IAM...That was a poor experience too. Of which I have written about on here in past. So will have a look where I posted it as cant be assed to write it all up again....
I got to say I totally agree with you about less experienced taking on board literally what some one else has posted or said...tis bit worrying to say the least.
I do believe there are quite a few out there who just love the Badge. ...Got to have IAM & ROSPA Gold , surely one or the other is enough ?
I read & practiced what the Police Riders manual said , of which I got when started ROSPA so after reading & practice , year or so later , I sailed through IAM.
My biggest problem with IAM is the difference in standards of training , or more what they are expected to do to pass the Test..varies big time from one group to another as I found out....
Seventeen points is quite an achievement I have to admit, and to then not lose your licence, well that does beggar belief.
Hi Ziderman, i haven't done the IAM as it was genuinely the need to keep up my training that made me choose the RoSPA, and my instructor who ripped me to to shreds made me challenge him to prove him wrong, we're best of friends now!
Lone Wolf - 17 points im not proud of, and it wasn't as if i collected them from pulling stunts or showing off, it was literally being a car driver on a bike (commuting a sleep i kid you not!)
The solicitor i used was amazing they deal with motoring offences only and i would recommend them to any one, (it took 3 months to go through the whole process and i did received 3 weeks of Ban during the process which was revoked), i think the key is being able to prove that others are affected by you not holding your license (i own a small business, etc...)
I probably should discuss this under the filtering subject, but i have been using my GTR this week in London and notice that motorways the temperature sits at 1 bar and not long after im in town the temperature shoots up to 3 bars, the fan stays on pretty much all day and it doesn't seem to cool down until the open road where it cools to 1 bar, was thinking the stats on its way out - does everybodies GTR do this?
The fan shouldn't come on at three bars.
Thanks, i'll get it to the dealer asap.
Best Regards
Quote from: Rehabilitated36 on November 02, 2011, 08:01:04 PM
Thanks, i'll get it to the dealer asap.
Best Regards
I'm not sure what mileage your bike has done but I know when I changed my coolant last year it droppoed the running temperature significantly especially with that coupled with an oil change.
Hi Mecki, answer to your last question first, id say the Newbie recently corrected by the Seasoned Police Man!
My intention was not to offend but to state that some questions can't be answered in a simple statement, and as your are obviously a keen biker my recommendation would be to seek your answers through training taking you through the different circumstances giving you the full picture, i think its the best way of understanding and interpreting the law.
Saw the aftermath of yet another accident today on the M40, looked like a biker undertook an Artic, change in weather always seems to bring more accidents?
Best Regards.
Quote from: Rehabilitated36 on November 02, 2011, 08:22:35 PM
my recommendation would be to seek your answers through training taking you through the different circumstances giving you the full picture, i think its the best way of understanding and interpreting the law.
Thanks, but no thanks.
From what I heard so far I don't think that would be my scene.
Hello 36 and welcome to the forum ... see you have started off well and got people going !! ;D
Been at work for the last 2/3 days so catching up on the threads ... 17 points in 3 months .. good effort I have to say ... amazed your not in prison ! ;D
I too take the Gtr into Central London ... Charring Cross .... and the fan cuts in at 3 bars, especially after coming in on the A3, where as you say it cools at 1 bar, then slow to London Crawling and the fan starts up ... not all the time I have to say but it does cut in .. " nothing to worry about " would be my opinion.
Hope you enjoy the banter ;D
Quote from: Rehabilitated36 on November 02, 2011, 07:53:26 PM
... motorways the temperature sits at 1 bar and not long after im in town the temperature shoots up to 3 bars, the fan stays on pretty much all day and it doesn't seem to cool down until the open road where it cools to 1 bar
My 2010 is very similar, 1 bar at cruising speeds, fan comes on shortly after the temp display reaches 3 bars. How long and often the fan stays on depends on ambient temperature. In the late twenties of summer in London, the fan runs for about a minute, switches off for about two minutes and maintains that cycle for as long as you are moving slowly or stopped. These autumnal/winter days of 10 degrees max, the off time of that cycle is significantly longer.
It sounds normal to me. Possibly check the coolant level in the expansion tank just to be sure it is not running low.
Martin.
Thanks for your comments on the engine temperature, its reassuring, levels are ok, will probably change the stat anyway just for piece of mind, its on Tuesday having second Fob programmed (my kids like to hide keys!) £350.00 ouch! Loving the bike though guys, wish i bought it in the first place, can't believe i chose BMW RT over this a year ago???? :-[
All good things come to those who wait ... or make mistakes ! ;D Enjoy.
Hi Guys,
I too find it incredulous, that if you are just left of the cental line waiting to turn right and indicating your intention to do so, that when you do so that some muppet who is overtaking! Who should not be overtaking by a junction, who is also traveling on the wrong side of the road and traveling in the wrong direction then crashes into you and it's your fault!!! :o
AndyM
Quote from: Shortybiker on November 03, 2011, 04:39:23 PM
Hi Guys,
I too find it incredulous, that if you are just left of the cental line waiting to turn right and indicating your intention to do so, that when you do so that some muppet who is overtaking! Who should not be overtaking by a junction, who is also traveling on the wrong side of the road and traveling in the wrong direction then crashes into you and it's your fault!!! :o
AndyM
Andy,
I believe the law is quite clear in the specific scenario you outlined, and you are right, I believe the law would find the car driver almost (if not wholly) blameless in this scenario. There may be a slight legal argument that despite indicating, and despite common sense saying people should not overtake at junctions, there is still a responsibility on the driver to look before crossing a lane of traffic.
The filtering scenario that the law tried to protect is the u-turning driver who executes the u-turn with no signal nor warning.
To be honest, if we all filter sensibly keeping our relative speeds appropriate and actually looking for people about to turn, u-turn or change lanes, none of this would ever happen.
If, like most filterers I see, you blindly barge through with this belief that you are allowed to filter anywhere and it is up to others to spot you, then hospital food awaits.
Martin.
Quotecan't believe i chose BMW RT over this a year ago???? :-[
Never had BMW...I know they rave about them...but there like a Woman..she may be the best Cook , Cleaner , shag in the world....but she could still be ugly...That's the BMWs...
The GTR you can just stare at , it's so dam delicious....!
Hi Martin,
When I filter, I tip toe along ;D don't want to taste the tarmac or hospital food, I've seen the Panorama programme about it! The West Midlands Police have a great saying, "Is it Safe, Is it Legal, Is it Necessary" if it isn't any one of those then don't do it!
AndyM
Ziderman - Spot on about beemers!
I had a Pan St1100 for 6 years, then St1300 for 6 months and the ECU went twice! (might be something to do with pulling wheelies off the lights!) but lost faith in it, had my incident speeding (on the old pan) hence i veered away from the GTR as i thought it was too quick/ tempting for my frame of mind, thats why i chose the RT and RoSPA course, was going for the GS but there as common as tampax! (i don't need to say it!), but got board with motorway cruising (struggling) on the RT, the GTR is so smooth and orgasmic its additive! Its done a week in London and been wet, so know i can't wait to clean it as soon as the rain stops!
Not wheelied the GTR.......... yet!
Does any one know if the KTRC kicks in when the front lifts?
Quote from: Rehabilitated36 on November 04, 2011, 06:35:15 PMDoes any one know if the KTRC kicks in when the front lifts?
It sure wouldn't deserve to be called traction control if it didn't. ::)
Quote from: Rehabilitated36 on November 04, 2011, 06:35:15 PM
Ziderman - Spot on about beemers!
I had a Pan St1100 for 6 years, then St1300 for 6 months and the ECU went twice! (might be something to do with pulling wheelies off the lights!) but lost faith in it, had my incident speeding (on the old pan) hence i veered away from the GTR as i thought it was too quick/ tempting for my frame of mind, thats why i chose the RT and RoSPA course, was going for the GS but there as common as tampax! (i don't need to say it!), but got board with motorway cruising (struggling) on the RT, the GTR is so smooth and orgasmic its additive! Its done a week in London and been wet, so know i can't wait to clean it as soon as the rain stops!
Not wheelied the GTR.......... yet!
Does any one know if the KTRC kicks in when the front lifts?
Simple really if you dont want the traction control to work switch it OFF. ;)
That'll be interesting then .... ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0jcvkbpSk68
how's this for some extreme filtering!!!!!!!!!!!
I've seen that before, I'm not going to comment on what I think of it, it's probably obvious! ::)
Quote from: Lonewolf on December 13, 2011, 06:52:16 PM
I've seen that before, I'm not going to comment on what I think of it, it's probably obvious! ::)
You said before - you never got a bike course.................
Quote from: keith on December 13, 2011, 04:42:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0jcvkbpSk68
how's this for some extreme filtering!!!!!!!!!!!
Well my 2p worth is that the crazy idiot on the bike ought to be locked up and chuck the key away.
Alan
seems about right for driving down the A1 into London.... ::).....
Besides being a bit mental. You do all realise that the video isn't entirely in real time (i.e. it's speeded up)?
One opened door, one hidden pedestrian and he is an ex-biker.
Very stupid, even if the video was sped up.
I used to get passed every day by a moron on a red Sprint 1050ST.
On 2 separate occasions I hadn't seen him approaching (was busy with what was happening ahead) and he damned near hit me when passing.
The 3rd time I used an old Motocross technique called "leaning" on him and after that he gave me plenty of leeway.
He did seem to be in an awful hurry to meet his maker.
One of my neighbours is a courier in London and rides there every day, he has paid for his house with his compensation from being knocked off and walks with a limp but still overtakes me when I am overtaking cars, so I had a word with him and basically told him not to be a prat around me as I valued my life and bike, now he waits until I have got back in before blasting by.
Still a prat tho.
Alan
Quote from: Boomer on December 14, 2011, 02:28:22 PM
The 3rd time I used an old Motocross technique called "leaning" on him and after that he gave me plenty of leeway.
How does that work?
Quote from: Kwikasfuki on December 14, 2011, 03:57:39 PM
How does that work?
It's a psychological trick. You make the space next to you seem smaller and riskier by deliberately wobbling a little and moving your body around on the bike. If they close up on you, close up on them even more. Essentially, make them feel uncomfortable about being anywhere near you. ;D