Well, I finally did it. Went and purchased at 10" #2 Philips screwdriver. Unable to find a JIS labelled one, so prayed that the one from B&Q would work.
Getting to the flies is easy. Took about 10 mins to undo the tank. Didn't totally remove it, and got nephew to hold it whilst I performed the operation.
Some people heat the screws using a soldering iron but I decided not to initially. All I ensured was that the tank was near empty and that the bike engine was nicely warm.
So onto the first screw. Said my prayers, inserted screwdriver, pressed down and turned. Disaster. Could feel the screwdriver move up and out i.e. the screw was being destroyed without it turning.
A few swear words, then thought about waiting until I could get a JIS #2 screwdriver. Then I thought: well, that one has been sheared slightly, might as well try technique on second screw. This time I ensured I put all thirteen stone of bodyweight behind the screwdriver and veeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyy slowly turned. Success! The screw was loose and some brown liquid was oozing out.
I repeated the technique on the rest and they all came out fine. Now back to the first. Grabbed a screwdriver, heated it till it was red hot, and placed it over the stubborn screw. Then waited about 5 mins, and using the same technique coaxed the screw out.
All I can say is: get as much force behind the screwdriver and turn slowly.
As for the difference it makes to the bike. WOW. WTF. OMG. Feels like I've just purchased a brand new bike. I already have the PC V and now all that is left is a K&N filter and a custom map.
And whilst you have the tank off, check for any rust signs and treat. I had very minor rust and put white grease on. Will be keeping me eye on it
Quote from: Norman Bates on August 29, 2010, 09:50:40 PM
I already have the PC V and now all that is left is a K&N filter and a custom map.
I 'd suggest BMC air filter, more expensive than K&N but more air intake.
Now that the flies are out, be careful with the Air Fuel Ratio as the bike could run very lean.
You have 2 solutions either you install the accessories Auto Tune AT-200 to the PCV or you have a very good Dyno tech guy that will be customizing you a map ( it takes all day and a lot of $$$) that will keep the bike in the 12.8 AFR area at all time.
I first installed the AT-200 but did not like the way it was changing the map, maybe I did not restrict it enough on the percentage of what it could change.
So I took it off and opted for the second solutions, and now my AFR is at best at all time and i have a great fuel comsumption.
What year model bike do you possess Mr Bates? Am I correct in assuming that on a 2010 model removing the flies would affect the traction control?
With autumn/winter around the corner be careful on the initial power. The back end could be all over the place.
Quote from: frenchbiker on August 30, 2010, 09:28:46 AM
You have 2 solutions either you install the accessories Auto Tune AT-200 to the PCV or you have a very good Dyno tech guy that will be customizing you a map ( it takes all day and a lot of $$$) that will keep the bike in the 12.8 AFR area at all time.
I first installed the AT-200 but did not like the way it was changing the map, maybe I did not restrict it enough on the percentage of what it could change.
So I took it off and opted for the second solutions, and now my AFR is at best at all time and i have a great fuel comsumption.
What percentage did you have the AT-200 at and what is your current fuel consumption. Its all subjective as it depends on how heavy your right hand is!
It's an 08 model. The reason for removing the flies was a safety issue. On a bike, when I make a decision I want the bike to respond, not lag. But you're right, traction, especially in the wet, will be an issue
I'm gonna regret asking this I know....when you mention the flies, WTF are you talking about ???
Quote from: Lonewolf on August 31, 2010, 01:31:18 AM
I'm gonna regret asking this I know....when you mention the flies, WTF are you talking about ???
Secondary throttle.
Quote from: frenchbiker on August 31, 2010, 06:25:59 AM
Quote from: Lonewolf on August 31, 2010, 01:31:18 AM
I'm gonna regret asking this I know....when you mention the flies, WTF are you talking about ???
Secondary throttle.
Imagine I'm really thick ;D I'm not a technically minded person I was unsure before, now I'm really confused. :)
In a nutshell, the ECU prevents a surge of power by having a secondary throttle in place which it manages (the silver thing in the pics above). By removing them the you end up controlling how the power is delivered.
That's is in layman terms I think
Yeah, thanks for that, clear as mud. My bikes fast enough and scares the life out of me now, I'd probably kill myself if it could go any quicker. :-)
Flies on our bike will only fully open when in 5th gear, and starts to open in lower gear after 4000 rpm. When you take them out, you get the full power right away after you pass 1500 rpm in any gear. I now can reach easily 60 mph, just in first gear...
How do you find riding in the wet without the flies?
Never really has been an issue for me, it was just a matter on how to tame the bike after the flies removal. Coz, yes, you do have far more torque at low speed.
I rode a friend's GTR with the flies still in recently and I forgot how different the handling was.
Just give it some time and it will no longer be a problem, I installed also the Pezzo clutch lever so it gives me a far better control at low speed.
The GTR went in for a service and they gave a CBR 1300 as a courtesy bike. After thrashing that for a day, it was bit of a let down getting back on my GTR. :( Even with no flies it didn't have the get up and go of the CBR.
Out of interest who does the servicing for you and what does it cost?
Quote from: Lonewolf on September 03, 2010, 01:51:55 AM
Out of interest who does the servicing for you and what does it cost?
Autorama @ Batley (Kawasaki dealership) and last cost was £250
Has anyone attempted this modification on a 2010 model?
Non-abs 2010 will be fine. The ABS model on the other hand would make the KTRC not perform as it should. KTRC (Traction Control-prevents rear wheel spin, like on gravel) uses 3 things to control wheel spin; Air, Fuel, Engine Timing. The secondary butterflies control the Air Portion of KRTC by closing them. Removing them might disable KTRC or may not affect it all. Someone just needs to try it (keeping all the screws and flys to re-assemble, if necessary) and report back on the KTRC. I wouldn't hesitate if I owned a 2010, because KTRC isn't important to me.
Some riders in the states have pulled the flies without issues. If you are going to try this with the intention of undoing the mod bear in mind you will probably need new screws and some sort of mild agent so they don't come undone. Don't use any agent medium strength or above as you probably won't be able to get them out again.
I am gonna be doing this in the spring. When the time is right would appreciate a chat on how this is done. Given I have a 2010 model we can see if the KTRC goes to sleep....
Did you get a custom map done?
Quote from: GTRPete on January 23, 2011, 03:35:50 PM
I am gonna be doing this in the spring. When the time is right would appreciate a chat on how this is done. Given I have a 2010 model we can see if the KTRC goes to sleep....
Did you get a custom map done?
Nope, didn't get a custom map. I bought the auto tune which I ave yet to put on. The hinderance is the existing O2 sensors. At the moment I'm running with the map for the '10 model which is fine. I'm looking to get the AutoTune setup sometime this summer.
Removing the flies isn't that hard - just gut wrenching as you don't want to mess the screw head up. Apparently if you apply some heat first to the screws it makes the job easier.
When I come to sell the bike I'm probably going to put the flies back in. Any idea what size screw and what thread locker to put on? If I use blue chances are the next person will never get them out, and put on something too weak and there could be engine trouble.
Or should I just leave them off?
I'd put them back in otherwise you'll scare the living daylights out of any new owner. Plus it could affect their insurance if the bike ever got examined after an accident if they hadn't declared any modifications because they didn't know about what you had done, it could null and void their policy.
More like null and void him !!
I will put them back in, just need to know the screw size and what thread locker to use
Hmm. This means a new bike coming next year.
I'm still waiting for Kawasaki to offer the interest free finance again and I'll be there with you. I'm not convinced I'd get rid of the current GTR though.
Quote from: Lonewolf on June 02, 2011, 10:54:03 PM
I'm still waiting for Kawasaki to offer the interest free finance again and I'll be there with you. I'm not convinced I'd get rid of the current GTR though.
I do think to myself why do I want to get rid of my current GTR as it ticks all the boxes. But I also like new toys :D
Hi Andy
The purpose of the secondary throttles is primaraly to smooth out airflow to stop bogging then surging when the throttle is opened sharply, and to generally give a smoother power delivery.
They are also used to reduce power under certain circumstances, such as traction control operation or gearchanging.
On the 1400s the secondary throttle shaft also has a cam on one end which can open the main throttle and is used as a fast idle device for cold starts.
I know that owners of the early bikes removed them as the 2006 model had their operation set to make power delivery smooth and docile below 5000 rpm.
Removing the secondary throttle can lead to a coarser power delivery and less driveability.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Steve Haswell
KMUK Customer Service
I assume he's talking about the ZZR there.
Drivability? Makes my GTR even more driveable!
Quote from: Norman Bates on June 03, 2011, 12:07:02 AM
I assume he's talking about the ZZR there.
Drivability? Makes my GTR even more driveable!
No, I asked question about GTR (he refers to traction control) but he seems to refer to original ZZR's also.
Hello All.
I asked ages ago about Removing the flies from a 2010 model with traction control etc. and nobody got back to me, so i thought i'd take one for the team and do it myself.
So here is the outcome.
1. the screws holding in the flies are made of butter.
2. a 10" number 2 phillips screw driver will help but you may also need assorted 1/4" drive bits as well as even the long screwdriver doesn't get straight to the screws.
3. you don't need to heat them, just make sure you are pushing REALLY hard to avoid rounding.
4. don't slip as you WILL skin your knuckles.
5. do one screw at a time. and keep at it until it's out. that way you don't bugger them all up and give up.
The results.
I've just been to Great Yarmouth and back 450 miles for work
the Traction control is NOT bothered that the flies are out.
if you try a wheelie the ignition is cut
if you try wheelspin the ignition is retarded
therefore traction control still works. no warning lights etc. it's fine.
The difference..
bear in mind i also did a full service and put a K&N air filter in so how much performance is that and how much is the flies is difficult to judge.
There seems to be more roll on power in all gears.
there isn't a delay is getting that rush of power
it's not a monster.
Driveability is better as you are not waiting for the computer to decide when to open the throttle - this is probably the only real benefit a quick start is quicker. Overtakes are quicker, the bike pulls harder from lower in the revs.
also is sounds a bit throatier - that might be the K&N
in summary - get the flies out you'll appreciate it.
Nice write up :punk:
I take it that item 4 is from personal experience ? :mfr_lol:
Sounds like there is no down side to this mod :clap:
as for #4. yes i have some spanner rash.
the issue is you need to be pushing really hard so as not to round the screws but then you slip as stove your knuckles into the airbox holes.
Quote from: exBanditOwner on September 03, 2015, 08:41:32 PM
as for #4. yes i have some spanner rash.
the issue is you need to be pushing really hard so as not to round the screws but then you slip as stove your knuckles into the airbox holes.
[/quote
Pain..........not good :no:
We've found using a JIS #2 screwdriver 6 inches or longer is helpful as is heating up the tip..
http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-tools/jis-screwdrivers/
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=384.msg3223#msg3223
Just removed secondary butterflies, as previous comments pulls better in every gear , instant power delivery no misfires/ surging, even in OD from really really low speeds etc with a CS1 fitted with baffles out , will keep a wee eye on my fuel ,for all u speed junkies out there IMHO do it now
Tip i used a PH1 pillips head and filed about 1 mm off the tip ,snug fit screws were removed with little effort
Kenny :devil2:
it's good isn't it.
:sweet:
Instant grin factor should of done ,,, a while ago!!!!!!!
What exactly do you tell your insurance company when you've done this? I struggle finding a call centre bod who understands the concept of moving house, let alone one that can handle being told I've removed the secondary butterflies.
Or do you just whistle innocently?
I guess the majority just whistle, I spent 45 minutes with a Carole Nash person explaining I had R&G crash bars for protection, a sat nav so I won't get lost, fender extenders and an Autocom system and got it all logged, then this year all was well apart from they would not insure the Autocom so I insisted they make a note of it on my insurance but not to cover it.
Seems they don't have a lot of wiggle room from standard bike quotes.
Alan
What does removing the flies have to do with the insurance companies?
In the UK we're supposed to detail any modifications that have been made to the bike. In theory they can refuse a claim if there is something that hasn't been declared.
Whether they'd investigate that far in to the innards of the bike I'm not sure, I suppose it would depend on the severity of the incident (read: claim).
I can see where you would need to notify them on accessories. That makes sense. But taking a mechanical bit off the bike that wouldn't affect value one way or the other? That seems ridiculous to me. We wouldn't do that over here. If you were to reflash the ECU. Would you report that as well?
Yep. The theory is that if you make the bike significantly more powerful (for example) then the risk factor for that bike is now higher.
Also if you're inept with a spanner then your risk of causing an incident when your mod goes wrong increases too!
Again, I suspect most don't notify them but you are supposed to.
Have you had a remap done or pc fitted.Ive heard it could run lean.Whats your thoughts. :clap:
I'm sure the ECU will compensate
Just done mine, K&N air filter and a power commander fuel controller loaded with PC5 Map for Butterlies removed, well Happy... :tank: