is there a quick fix to this? i get a wallowing or weaving round highish speed corners.
tia
yes. dont go around the corners so fast !!!
A) Slow down? :mfr_lol:.
B) Choose a lower gear and power through bend.
C) Countersteer to push front end in harder therefore quickening the steering.
D) Look through bend to where you want to be.
I imagine the main issue will be to high a gear meaning there is a lack of drive and resultant grip giving a wallowing feel.
By selecting a gear or two lower this will create more mechanical grip through the rear tyre as it grips the road harder due to extra torque created. This also has the effect of forcing the front tyre to grip as weight through transmission is created. Loading the front end like this creates grip which is what people refer to as 'front end feel'.
The overall result is the bike will feel more as one with you.
Other benefits mean less need to brake as the bike will accelerate and slow on the throttle.
Lower gear is usually the answer to most handling related issues.
Most folk, particularly car drivers, don't use the rev range on bikes as the high revving is quite alien compared to a care which red-lines at 5-7k revs. Bikes can/need revving about twice that of a car engine to get the best performance.
Only time I ever engage top gear (or even 5th) is on long straights or motorways.
The 1400GTR needs the front end loading compared to other Sports Tourers to really make it work at it's best.
cheers chaps interesting stuff winston but im glad you went into such detail because i may have narrowed down some possible causes, i brake right into corners (a bad habit from my hair raising sportbike riding style ) so my front end is always very loaded
and im also guilty of riding it like my 2 stroke yam 350 or ninja 600 in that i tap dance on the gearbox and dont just lug around in 5th or top.
i have a helmet cam and once i get my new tyres scrubbed in i will try and record it and get it on youtube
Great post by Winston. One of the most common problems I see with IAM Associates (trainees) is running into corners in too high a gear. In fact riding everywhee in too high a gear. You should aim to be in a responsive gear at all times, one that will slow you if you shut the throttle, while still allowing you to accelerate if need be.
Try getting your braking over BEFORE the corner and then drive the bike through. Not violent acceleration, just enough to maintain speed until you see the road round the corner is clear.
If you try to go through a corner, whatever gear you are in, on a closed throttle the bike will want to run wide and wallow.
Quote from: STX1300man on March 23, 2014, 04:39:03 PM
Great post by Winston.
Agree fully, Winston summed it up in one......... well in 4!
P
Quote from: STX1300man on March 23, 2014, 04:39:03 PM
Great post by Winston. One of the most common problems I see with IAM Associates (trainees) is running into corners in too high a gear. In fact riding everywhee in too high a gear. You should aim to be in a responsive gear at all times, one that will slow you if you shut the throttle, while still allowing you to accelerate if need be.
Try getting your braking over BEFORE the corner and then drive the bike through. Not violent acceleration, just enough to maintain speed until you see the road round the corner is clear.
If you try to go through a corner, whatever gear you are in, on a closed throttle the bike will want to run wide and wallow.
i have tried everything to correct my style of cornering when going very fast but i just cant seem to do it without everything going to pot or ending up going round corners too slow.
when im pushing it i brake late and right into the corner sometimes right up to the apex and then wind the power on as soon as i know i arent going to end up in a hedge etc.
it might be as i open the throttle while already cranked over? i do find it hard to analyze what is actually going on because the adrenaline is flowing my heart is pumping and im like 100 % tuned in to having fun.
IF i go round corners slow enough to take in the scenery and/or think about what is happening then i dont get the wallowing/weaving.
but go faster and its as if the handlebars are going round in circles? and i arent in peg scraping territory either so its not as if im trying to get track day performance out of something not built for it.
i once tried setting up the damping /preload on my zx6 at the roadside and couldnt hardly tell what difference the adjustments were making so i left it all on softest and it rides very well once the initial dive has been taken up.
i know some riders are pushing thier gtr's harder than me by the peg down comments and wondered if they too get the wallowing?
I very rerely ride below 4k revs always keep the engine buzzing ready for any eventuality should it occur. Totally agree with all the above, but also your body position has a factor on the handling make sure you are ballanced and relaxed,before you make any manouvre. Keep to your chosen line and keep an eye on the vanishing point.
Just noticed we're neighbour aljaxon! You have a PM
Sorry aljaxon but your reply (two posts above) describes exactly why you are having problems.
You are trying to ride fast and then sort out the problems that causes. Talk of apexing (unless on wide open areas like the fens) is meaningless.
Sort out your riding FIRST so you you are planning what you are going to do. Don't just throw it at a corner and then turn on the gas again. Get the planning and execution right and speed (safe speed!) comes as a result, not as a target/aim.
You may not like it, may think they are all fuddy dudddys, but get yourself some guidence from IAM/ROSPA etc. You'll still end up enjoying your riding, and arrive relaxed and calm.
It's all in the planning .. it really is that simple. :yes:
Just a thought here, has your bike completed a few miles ? we all know how well kawasaki grease (not) the steering head bearings and sorry to say most shocks are built to a price not to a quality, so back on track (sorry for the pun) but I wonder if the head bearings are worn and the rear shock might also be knackered ? any of these sound like the symptons that you are experiencing, on one of my zzr 11's the rear shock failed at 11k and the shocks are known to be a weakness on current zzr14's, are they as bad on GTR's ?
+1 on riding in a gear in which the bike is responsive and not labouring.
+1 on the RoSPA comments, I managed to achieve a gold pass years ago and I think the "system" is the only way to go on the road. :agree:
thanks for the comments
i have 2 other bikes and the 1974 rd350 used to act like a fish or as if it had a hinge in the middle
i replaced the plastic swinging arm bushes with phosphor bronze bushes and it will now corner at 100 mph and is rock solid at speeds the gtr wobbles at.
on my zx6r its as if im sat in my armchair in my living room even pushing it to track day limits.
but the gtr has this bad wobble or weave.
i cant believe its bad riding style? and by that im not saying i am a good rider, far from it but that i would have thought that todays technology would be a bit more forgiving and allow me to ride it ruff arsed and still perform.
or maybe i need to stiffen something up?
i havent looked at the suspension settings front or back and it might just be set too soft or too hard?
i once read bits of that twist of the wrist book and tried applying it while out riding and everything went to pot so i abandoned it all and instead just rode and the smile returned to my face.
i was hoping it was just a setting that i could tweak, i know i should set up my sag (thats if the suspension is even adjustable?)
when it warms up winston has kindly offered to ride with me to see if we can sort it out.
does anyone elses gtr wobble or weave if they are pushing it and not being nice and smooth?
Quote from: davetherave on March 23, 2014, 10:00:21 PM
Just a thought here, has your bike completed a few miles ? we all know how well kawasaki grease (not) the steering head bearings and sorry to say most shocks are built to a price not to a quality, so back on track (sorry for the pun) but I wonder if the head bearings are worn and the rear shock might also be knackered ? any of these sound like the symptons that you are experiencing, on one of my zzr 11's the rear shock failed at 11k and the shocks are known to be a weakness on current zzr14's, are they as bad on GTR's ?
+1 on riding in a gear in which the bike is responsive and not labouring.
+1 on the RoSPA comments, I managed to achieve a gold pass years ago and I think the "system" is the only way to go on the road. :agree:
i had to replace the head bearings on my zx6r as they had notched and wanted to stay straight and the symptoms were not like what i am getting. the bike has done less than 10k miles
i just need to know if other peoples gtrs do this if ridden less than smoothly. if i slow down a bit it behaves fine its just if i get carried away.
If the bike is weaving through the corners I would not though that is was you , sounds like the front is to soft ,or the rear shock has had it , tyres have the right pressure in them , even if you brake right into a bend then flick it on its side it won't weave about unless some thing is not right , I did notice on mine that it did bounce back up off the brakes ,but since I had Kais suspension services set it up ,it is now spot on , you are not far from me so could meet up and have a ride , I ride to Cadwell a lot and the roads are fantastic around there plenty of nice bends to sort it out ,, :biker3:
a few of us north bankers have "discovered" the bardney tt, from market rasen to wragby (sometimes stopping at aerodrome cafe) then on to bardney and then on to horncastle. virtually no traffic and loads of corners albeit a bit flat. but from horncastle back up the high street to willy woods its a bit hillier.
where abouts are you nightrider?
When I used to live in Kings Lynn I often rode the Bardney bends then Horncastle/Louth/Market Raison, some great roads around there :biker3:
I'm in selby ,north yorkshire. ,
i tried viewing the members map on here but it came up blank on google chrome :cry:
ive just been working near you in askern and ive got some work in asselby
Have updated profile and done the map , if weather not to bad will be out this weekend,
son in law to be's stag do all day saturday so i will be in a coma no doubt sunday . .
No prob , go another weekend , I will send you a pm ,another time , :biker3:
top reply from winston, spinning the engine at higher rpm also creates centripedal forces that induce a gyroscopic stabilty, dragging the back brake very slightly also makes a bike more stable when cornering. For handling issues start at the basics , firstly check tyre pressures and check tyres for wear issues , check shock settings , many a man has had forks set up with a difference between left and right fork. Check fork oil levels and check head race bearings , im not an expert but thats were i would be looking before a trip to a dealers , finalLY , never coast in a corner, you are not in control , always drive through, hope we can help out ;-)
at very high speeds (eg , above 200 kmh) , my GTR will also weave her head side to side when negotiating high speed corners.
Its very disconcerting.
.
Quote from: pistole on March 25, 2014, 02:55:57 AM
at very high speeds (eg , above 200 kmh) , my GTR will also weave her head side to side when negotiating high speed corners.
Its very disconcerting.
.
I am not surprised. You are asking built to a price (and built to take every rider) suspension to cope with 300kg of bike, 80+ kg of rider/passenger/luggage to do something it is not going to do very often.
My belief is that the suspension on our bikes has reasonably budget damping, and Kawasaki used a high spring rate to allow that damping to handle the weight of the bike and the range of loads it will have to deal with.
I think the suspension does a great job most of the time, but if stability on 200kmh corners is important to you, you need to get your wallet out and get better damping control at both ends.
Martin.
80kg of rider!!!!! :whistling:
I wish. :mfr_lol:
having a top box fitted will cause a weave , just stating the obvious ;-)
Copes fine with my 160kg AND a topbox. <LOL>
Sent from my GT-N8010 using Tapatalk
i am 13 stone - dunno my kg, but a lot of my weight is below waist level (just call me big boy . . . )
and i do ride with the top box fitted but mostly not carrying anything other than the usual spare pair of knickers suspender belts stockings and a weekends supply of a hundred or so condoms . . .
on one corner on the way to the local cafe - a lovely sweeping bend i normally do 110-120 round on my 600 the gtr weaves at around 90-100
No problem at all with 160kg+ of rider and pillion, panniers and top box full to capacity, steady as a rock.
its maybe just the suspension that needs tweaking?
Either the suspension or the wheel bearings. Whats the mileage? Front bearings are only good for around 25k miles.
Sent from my GT-N8010 using Tapatalk
Quote from: dapperdan on March 25, 2014, 04:51:49 PM
having a top box fitted will cause a weave , just stating the obvious ;-)
You would certainly think so but I've got the standard 47ltr box which up until recently I've kept on the bike permanently and I've never experienced any weave on the Gtr.
Quote from: The Wolf on March 26, 2014, 02:53:41 AM
You would certainly think so but I've got the standard 47ltr box which up until recently I've kept on the bike permanently and I've never experienced any weave on the Gtr.
Then you are not going fast enough !!! :mfr_lol:
Bike certainly does weave at high speed with topbox fitted and riding alone.
Deon
Maybe your bike weaves at speed with a top box fitted, mine however does not and has been tested up to 160Mph and still no weave.
Mine has a NonFango 852 topbox as can be seen on all my bikes for the last 15 years.
Held a sustained 120 to 160 for over an hour on the A3/E35 between Frankfurt & Bonn coming home from the GCE Rally 2007 in Mellrichstadt.
OEM screen but had the topbox and panniers fitted. Stable as a rock, even through the curves.
I did have to hang off quite far and use countersteering to get her round some of the bends though.
Quote from: The Wolf on March 26, 2014, 02:53:41 AM
You would certainly think so but I've got the standard 47ltr box which up until recently I've kept on the bike permanently and I've never experienced any weave on the Gtr.
:agree: Mine came as a Grand Tourer and the only comment I can make about my bike is that I need to adjust the rear rebound damping a little bit..............With respect I would suggest you invest a little time and money and have the bike set up by a professional who knows what they are doing and who can tailor the adjustments to suit your individual riding style and preferences.
Your body mass, physical size and shape will have a velocity related influence on the handling of any bike you ride.
Quote from: Deon on March 26, 2014, 06:08:48 AM
Then you are not going fast enough !!! :mfr_lol:
Bike certainly does weave at high speed with topbox fitted and riding alone.
Deon
Deon, similar circumstances to Boomer, (although not quite as fast I have to admit), steady 120mph on a certain stretch of road, panniers, top box and extra large C-Baileys screen, no weaving. Perhaps you bike is faulty. :whistling:
Nope, bike is perfect. Get a weave at about 200 Km/H. Without topbox and panniers, no weave at all.
Deon
hi deon
i would check the wheel are running true .ie could have a slight buckle
also check your tyres for sign of wear to indicate the problem... :innocent: :surrender:
Quote from: shepster on March 26, 2014, 12:32:48 PM
hi deon
i would check the wheel are running true .ie could have a slight buckle
also check your tyres for sign of wear to indicate the problem... :innocent: :surrender:
check tyres are the correct size and load rating :surrender:
I think worn tyres also as stated
regards Coman
Aljaxon -- Are you experiencing any more vibration, other than normal ??
First time I've read this, and unfortunately have to be the thorn in the ointment....
There is so much information here, and I'm not disagreeing particularly with any of it.... but just remember - KISS. you can do more harm than good.
posed with that problem, I would say be you need to pick one Item, pick a stretch of road that causes the problem to occur, then adjust that one element. I would be tempted to adjust the rear preload, to me it sounds a little soft and its the easiest to solve.
This is all providing your not taking the corner like a 50p coin (i.e. rider error). Although if you have read "Twist of the Wrist" you'll understand when I say the following: when your talking about your riding, you sound like your hitting your SR's all the time and would recommend you get out with an "advanced" rider..... I'm not saying your a bad rider, but from the passion in your writing, its certainly adventurous and as someone mentioned - planning is the key..... you sound like your reacting.
Anyway, I'm starting to waffle, but I felt strongly enough to comment.
Neil
Or you could try slower roads with tighter bends :whistling:
I had a video here a while back of me chasing a couple of ferraris. We hit 240 - 250 kmh at certain stretches and at the bends , the bike was visibly weaving her head. With the guardrail a couple of feet away , you will back off without doubt.
No top box. Just solo rider with full panniers.
its not something that is easily demonstrated and apart from throwing suspension adjustments at the bike , you're not going to have much opportunity to "test" your new settings in any event.
.
I had play on the a1 with a porshe and I had top box and panniers on and when it went above 120 it went into a weave still doing it at 140 , I dropped back tried again and it did the same , since then I have changed the front tyre , and had it up to high speeds again but without panniers on and it was fine , I put it down to the front tyre , had a head shake on the zzr1200 and that was the front tyre , even tho it looked fine and had life left in it , :biker3:
Agree with all the comments.
I notice that with PR4 GT tyres I get more wobble than I did with the PR3's. The PR4's seem better as the air slowly leaks out (now 42psi rather than 44psi).
I also suffer from short wheel bearing life, around 8K miles. This causes weave when they start to go, too.
ive just ordered a rear pr4 gt..... :wacko:
i suppose i will have to put a front on to match it?
Quote from: aljaxon on March 28, 2014, 09:19:17 AM
ive just ordered a rear pr4 gt..... :wacko:
i suppose i will have to put a front on to match it?
It wouldn't hurt would it? :mfr_lol:
only the bank balance.....
just done a few days to Scotland and back and I think ive sussed that if you ride the bike smoothly it behaves and I get no weaving or wallowing
cranked right over at 120 plus as long as I haven't braked hard or snapped the throttle wide open it is rock solid
I think bumpy uneven corners still prompt the wallowing though
as soon as I try riding it as if im on a race track ie fast as possible into corner , slow down as late as possible and then brake as hard as possible right up to the apex and then snap the throttle wide open as soon as you know you are gonna get round its when I snap the throttle it wallows around
I can imagine a lot of slower or smoother riders wont notice this.
my 600 will take anything I can throw at it and is 100 percent solid really pushing it hardon the verge of losing grip etc it is fun to ride but this thing needs a bit more respect
I will see about taking up those offers of a ride with hopefully a bike swap to rule out the bike itself?
I think you will probably find that the OEM suspension is not up to the job of someone slinging a 300Kg sports-tourer around like it was a 185kg sports bike.
For starters apart from the weight it has a much longer wheelbase and almost certainly requires a different approach to riding it fast compared with a pocket rocket.
Quote from: Winston Smith on March 23, 2014, 11:32:36 AM
A) Slow down? :mfr_lol:.
B) Choose a lower gear and power through bend.
C) Countersteer to push front end in harder therefore quickening the steering.
D) Look through bend to where you want to be.
I imagine the main issue will be to high a gear meaning there is a lack of drive and resultant grip giving a wallowing feel.
By selecting a gear or two lower this will create more mechanical grip through the rear tyre as it grips the road harder due to extra torque created. This also has the effect of forcing the front tyre to grip as weight through transmission is created. Loading the front end like this creates grip which is what people refer to as 'front end feel'.
The overall result is the bike will feel more as one with you.
Other benefits mean less need to brake as the bike will accelerate and slow on the throttle.
Lower gear is usually the answer to most handling related issues.
Most folk, particularly car drivers, don't use the rev range on bikes as the high revving is quite alien compared to a care which red-lines at 5-7k revs. Bikes can/need revving about twice that of a car engine to get the best performance.
Only time I ever engage top gear (or even 5th) is on long straights or motorways.
The 1400GTR needs the front end loading compared to other Sports Tourers to really make it work at it's best.
spot on Winston .
enter in the correct gear and power out. :agree: :agree:
Quote from: Boomer on July 21, 2014, 01:27:16 PM
I think you will probably find that the OEM suspension is not up to the job of someone slinging a 300Kg sports-tourer around like it was a 185kg sports bike.
For starters apart from the weight it has a much longer wheelbase and almost certainly requires a different approach to riding it fast compared with a pocket rocket.
and that's probably it in a nutshell, I haven't even looked at the suspension , the prev owner might have set it up to his 20 stone or used real light weigh fork oil or any number of things but I think im maybe expecting too much to be able to throw it around
its still good fun trying though as im sure the more spirited riders out there can confirm
and im that naiive I thought loading the front end was braking so it was almost bottomed out..... :death:
Following this thread for a while; never had any wallowing but did have a couple of 'interesting moments' on rough surfaces with the suspension set straight out of the box. I'm 100kg, 16 stone in old money riding with top box plus panniers every day. I always take my bikes to MCT suspension at Stowmarket to have them set up or overhauled by Darren and Tom. Darren is a successful club racer and to quote him ' If you want a licence loosing comfy chair that go's like f#*k this is the bike ''the handlings phenomenal' After the set up the bike was so much smoother to ride and took far less effort to get over and hold the line in the bends. Never going to flick 300kg of bike around like a sports bike but having the suspension set up along with setting up the corners earlier may prevent the wallowing and any shaking.
Ditto had my last one done there, wife's Z1000SX was done last week. Mine was due to be done this week but over spent getting the Wife's done :( but she's a happy girl :)
Sent from my iPhone by mini Elves.
Zeb
I had the same weaving around corners experience with the OEM tires. Once I swapped for Pirellis Angel GT (55 in the back), it was a totally new ball game!! The beast now flies and leans around corners as if on rails, as steady as my busa!!! I recommend you try it!! Get used to pegs scraping the pavement though!!!! :mfr_lol:
http://www.gtr1400.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,485.0.html
Obviously check tyres and pressures also.
Quote from: lablank on July 28, 2014, 09:56:35 PM
Get used to pegs scraping the pavement though!!!! :mfr_lol:
Fitted P4's front and rear - and yes, so much better but still don't have the confidence to lean till the pegs scrape unlike my Goldwing that sent sparks everywhere (fun at night)
I nearly jumped off the bike the first time my foot scraped on the road, the peg would have followed half a second later if I hadn't have jumped out of my skin!!
and now I know what angle of lean it takes I sub consciously daren't exceed that
wuss I know