Evening all,
I have what I would call a rattle/clattering/metallic noise that is beginning to get me down. I accept all machines have their little quirks and noises but something doesn't feel right. I believe for a 1400cc engine it doesn't sound quite as smooth and refined as it should.
My observations:
- rattle/clattering/metallic knocking/vibration induced noise from the engine area (sorry difficult to be any more specific)
- Particularly noticeable when accelerating, at 2600 rpm, and 4000rpm+
- Start up noise (covered on my previous thread but don't know if it related to this?)
- No significant vibration through the handlebars
- The 'noise' is quite subtle, often difficult to hear (more due to wind noise etc I suspect) but it sound too harsh to be normal.
My attempts to combat the problem so far:
- tighten exhaust header nuts by 1/2 turn (made no noticeable difference)
- tighten all fairing related nuts
- check radiator is firmly in place
- tighten exhaust bracket on the underside of the bike
My thoughts on what the noise could be/need to do to stop noise (bearing in mind I have minimal mechanic knowledge):
- exhaust headers to be re-seated with new copper seals?
- valve clearances?
- cam shaft pre tensioner?
- head gasket?
- timing chain?
The bike has only done 12000 miles and appreciate none of the about is due according to the service schedule, but I'm struggling to think of anything else that may be causing the problem. I am still well within my 6 month warranty with the dealer I purchased the bike from but want to get your opinions/experiences so I have things to suggest.
I know the dealers first remark will be 'its normal, they all do that". I've heard it all before. The dealer that sold me my old bike tried that once but persisted and ended up replacing throttle body assembly (£700 of parts and labour), problem resolved and felt like a new bike!
Let me know your thoughts and comments. Feel free to turn round and say 'stop being a stupid :censored: and just ride it, you've got nothing to worry about' if applicable!
Jon
Could be anything. Can you describe the sound in a bit more detail?
Ear plugs.
Its really hard to describe, but its definitely sounds metallic and is like a clatter or knocking that increases and decreases in frequency with the revs. . Its also difficult to pinpoint and depending on the number of revs sometimes difficult to hear, which makes me think it might be internal? Other times, like at 2600rpm its very noticeable (particularly under load i.e. travelling down the road maintaining the revs).
I would see if you can have a test ride on another gtr , if not at a dealer then at a bike meet and get somebody else who has a gtr to have a go and see what they think , if there is a noise then hopefully they will hear it so if you go back to the place you got it from , at least you will be sure that you are right, if not then wait and go to the gtr meet and there will be lots to compare to , :biker3:
Do you have lots of keys hanging hanging from your keyring ? mysterious noises have been causes by this before and as you describe the noise increasing and decreasing with the revs its worth taking any spare keys off.
dtr
i wouldn't get myself stressed about it , it could be anything making the noise, maybe the cam chain ratteling , take it back to the dealer whilst you still have the warranty cover . tell him you are not happy and get it sorted .
My keys and FOB live in my jacket pocket when I'm using the bike, I just rely on the remote ignition. I have taken the top box and base plate off to verify this isn't the source.
Something under the seat?
Nope. Checked under seat last week. Sound is too prominent for that. Although the noise is subtle it does sound 'heavy duty'.
Front mudgard? Only time I can remember an annoying sound was when that was on properly.
Otherwise, get a louder exhaust and enjoy that noise instead :mfr_lol:
Front engine mounting bolts loose ?
Quote from: Ant on March 06, 2014, 10:41:43 PM
Front engine mounting bolts loose ?
Good suggestion. Whereabouts am I looking so I can check/adjust?
Quote from: keith on March 06, 2014, 10:08:35 PM
i wouldn't get myself stressed about it , it could be anything making the noise, maybe the cam chain ratteling , take it back to the dealer whilst you still have the warranty cover . tell him you are not happy and get it sorted .
:agree:
Quote from: davetherave on March 06, 2014, 09:56:58 PM
Do you have lots of keys hanging hanging from your keyring ? mysterious noises have been causes by this before and as you describe the noise increasing and decreasing with the revs its worth taking any spare keys off.
dtr
how do you attach keys to the cooker knob in the ignition?
Quote from: jonkawasaki on March 06, 2014, 11:09:33 PM
Good suggestion. Whereabouts am I looking so I can check/adjust?
Mmmm, you'd be getting vibration if that was the case
take video with your phone. Upload to www.youtube.com
post it up here.
.
I had a similar "rattling" noise on my ZX1400 that increased and decreased with the revs. Initially thought it could be the output shaft bearing or cam chain. After many moons of checking, it turned out to be the balancing shafts that needed adjustment. This engine has 2 balancing shafts that are able to be adjusted. This was done and sound was gone.
I am not saying that this is the problem that you have, but perhaps just a suggestion to have those checked out.
Deon
Could be almost anything.
Does it only do it under load (whilst riding) or does it also rattle when in neutral?
If you strip off the 2 side fairings you should be able to locate the noise more closely.
A neat trick is to get a long screwdriver and place the tip on a metal part of the motor and the end of the handle against your skull just behind your ear.
Test like this in various places and you should be able to localise the noise.
Check that the exhaust headers are secured tightly :yes:
Listen for ticking noise throughout the length of the video - its quite easy to hear. Ignore disturbance right at the end, that's just me moving my hand.
http://youtu.be/Iogv_-eSBCQ (http://youtu.be/Iogv_-eSBCQ)
Quote from: Deon on March 07, 2014, 06:02:02 AM
I had a similar "rattling" noise on my ZX1400 that increased and decreased with the revs. Initially thought it could be the output shaft bearing or cam chain. After many moons of checking, it turned out to be the balancing shafts that needed adjustment. This engine has 2 balancing shafts that are able to be adjusted. This was done and sound was gone.
I am not saying that this is the problem that you have, but perhaps just a suggestion to have those checked out.
Deon
Thanks for the suggestion! Although, did you still get the noise at idle in neutral?
Sounds fine to me?
Quote from: Kwikasfuki on March 07, 2014, 12:52:41 PM
Sounds fine to me?
Engine sounds great, but can you not hear that clattery rattling sound?
Sounds normal to me too, sorry Jon.
The only sound I can hear that remotely equates to what you describe is the valvetrain noise that is perfectly normal, and present on every bike I have had.
Martin.
Jonk I can hear exactly what you're describing, it is like a metallic sound, ticking, I don't have that on mine.
I listened to it last week when we changed the oils and filter. To me it sounded like the reed valves dancing in the valve cover that regulate the KLEEN air
sounds like worn valve shims to me.? :whistling:
take it back to the shop if its under warranty. let them sort it. :yes:
Valve shims don't wear. If anything the valve clearances close up over time and the engine becomes quieter rather l=than louder
Just a thought, could it be a noisy injector? If so a dose of injector magic used to sort out cars with this problem.......
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab43/jonejsouthwell/JONSOUTHWELL/exhaust_zps59392521.jpg) (http://s848.photobucket.com/user/jonejsouthwell/media/JONSOUTHWELL/exhaust_zps59392521.jpg.html)
After a close inspection today, I THINK the noise could be coming from this part of the exhaust. If it is, what could it be?
After a close inspection today, I THINK the noise could be coming from this part of the exhaust. If it is, what could it be?
Another audio file but this time near the exhaust area where I think the noise is coming from. I move the microphone around different areas of the exhaust and give it a little rev to help hear the noise.
http://youtu.be/lxuSI2W0m7Y (http://youtu.be/lxuSI2W0m7Y)
yes i can here a metallic sound ,more like a rattle .like i said dont get stressed take it back under the warranty while you still can may be nothing but best to get it checked in a motorcycle workshop good luck
Mr jonkawasaki... that sounds alright to me :smiley: certainly nothing to worry about :no: engines have moving parts that make different noises which may not effect another bike, and if you listen hard enough you soon find a different sounding noise :laugh: just ride and enjoy your bike and forget the noise, after a few days you will stop hearing it :grin: it is only annoying you because you Subconsciously know it's there :mfr_lol:
Quote from: 2kwacks on March 07, 2014, 06:44:30 PM
Mr jonkawasaki... that sounds alright to me :smiley: certainly nothing to worry about :no: engines have moving parts that make different noises which may not effect another bike, and if you listen hard enough you soon find a different sounding noise :laugh: just ride and enjoy your bike and forget the noise, after a few days you will stop hearing it :grin: it is only annoying you because you Subconsciously know it's there :mfr_lol:
Thing is I know it probably isn't a major problem but I know something isn't quite right, and its very hard for me to accept the problem and live with it. It is the only thing from making it a perfect bike and am not content with just putting up with it, especially considering a spent a lot of money buying it (well a lot for me at least). To be honest it would bother me to the point I would have to consider selling it if I can't diagnose the problem or get it fixed, which is a really big shame because its such a lovely machine.
I noticed there are two 'things' (maybe sensors?) in the exhaust near where I think the rattle is coming from ... what are they? Exhaust gas sensor? or maybe some kind of butterfly valve?
This may sound completely idiotic - but could a stone have fallen down through the exhaust from the silencer end?
They are oxygen sensors for the catalyst, and on that subject it could be a catalytic converter making the noise.
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Quote from: Barry7 on March 07, 2014, 08:04:54 PM
They are oxygen sensors for the catalyst, and on that subject it could be a catalytic converter making the noise.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
The thought did cross my mind but I wasn't sure if the cat con was in the silencer or where I think the noise is coming from. I have checked the sensors themselves and they feel firm. Can a catalytic converter make a rattling sound though? Benefit of having that changed or checked is I can have the dealer do the headers at the same time :yes:
Yes the cats are in the down pipes near the O2 sensors and can melt down and fail, I have seen this on cars a lot but never on a bike yet, so you may be the first.
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Is the bike under warranty? If so, for peace of mind, get it seen by the dealer
honestly : if you're worried about the sounds in those two videos of yours , you would hesitate to ride my R1200GS on account of you thinking that the engine was about to fall apart.
your engine sounds pretty good. Oil change , wring the heck out of it and report back.
one thing that you might want to verify are the tightness of your exhaust manifold to cylinder head bolts. Thats it.
.
Quote from: pistole on March 07, 2014, 09:25:56 PM
Oil change , wring the heck out of it and report back.
Already done! Engine sounds sweeter for it, but hasn't helped my damned rattle!
I have exactly the same rattle and have yet to pinpoint the cause
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
his noise (((rattle))) comes from the exhaust manifolds, not assembled properly, disassemble and reassemble the exhaust manifolds.
MGvalerio. :yes:
Quick interim update folks!
I'm virtually certain I've figured out the problem! I did the ol' screwdriver behind the ear trick in lots of places, got a few mechanic friends to listen to the bike and have collectively come up with the following:
1) Not the catalytic converter as previously thought
2) When cold the bike makes a rattling sound for a second or so as the auto tensioner gets going
3) Metallic ticking noise is always present, any rpm, whilst moving and stationary, hot or cold
4) However the noise gets worse as the bike warms up
5) Considering the bike is on 12,000 miles and 60 plate its pretty unlikely the valve clearances and other common suggestions are causing the problem
SO, bearing in mind all of the above, it can only really be one thing left -- timing chain and pre-tensioner. Think about it....I get the rattle on start-up (yes, I know this is considered 'normal', but it is not as the manufacturer intended), and as the bike heats up the rattle gets louder because the timing chain gets warm and expands but the slack is not taken up by the tensioner.
Been reading lots of internet material and there a lots of examples of 1400GTR's with tensioners that get a bit mucky causing problems anytime including from as little as 10,000 miles. However, if you have a rattle whilst idling and/or when warm this is not ideal and tensioner and chain should be checked and adjusted. Leaving this for an excessive amount of time can damage the chain and guide rails potentially causing some more serious damage (to you and/or the bike) at some point in the future.
My dad offered a ear to the bike and said my noise was very similar to his old car when it needed the timing chain replaced.
Booked into the Kawasaki dealer on Tuesday!
NB: also going to get them to re-seal exhaust headers and manifold behind the catalytic converter. I have already tightened the headers but want to future proof the bike while I have the opportunity.
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT OR ADD ANYTHING! :banana:
Easiest way to find out if it's making a noise it shouldn't is to compare it to another one... there's got to be someone on here , in your neck of the woods you can meet up with for a bacon butty and a cup of tea :yes:
Yeh the dealer said they would compare to another 1400GTR while its in for diagnostics :yes:
Hi
I have one of these (same idea, different make), very handy for finding odd noises.
When I first used it on a car engine I was amazed at the sensitivity of it when the probe is put against various bits of the engine.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mechanics-Stethoscope-/390587352077?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item5af0d2040d
Richard
Just on item 2
The tensioner is not controlled by oil pressure, but by a spring against a ratchet, so once it has taken up the tension, it stays like that. Hot or cold. Engine on or off. It can only be released by removing the assembly and manually resetting it.
The start up rattling is the mains and bigends gently knocking until the oil pressure rises and takes up the bearing clearance. I had that same noise on my old bike and took to prodding the starter quickly to spin the engine without it catching a couple of times. That stopped it. It only happened on the first start of the day, however
Quote from: Burchy on March 12, 2014, 06:13:15 PM
The start up rattling is the mains and bigends gently knocking until the oil pressure rises and takes up the bearing clearance.
WRONG WRONG WRONG
If this was true your engine would be F :censored: cked in no time at all.
That start up rattle is the variable valve system coming up to pressure.
QuoteThe tensioner is not controlled by oil pressure, but by a spring against a ratchet, so once it has taken up the tension, it stays like that. Hot or cold. Engine on or off. It can only be released by removing the assembly and manually resetting it.
TRUE
Quote from: Burchy on March 12, 2014, 06:13:15 PMThe tensioner is not controlled by oil pressure, but by a spring against a ratchet, so once it has taken up the tension, it stays like that. Hot or cold. Engine on or off. It can only be released by removing the assembly and manually resetting it
that is partly correct.
the cam chain tensioner on the GTR is partly ratchet and partly oil pressure. The ratchet sets a "basic" tension on the chain which is then supplemented by oil pressure from the block gallery as the engine oil circulates. Hence the rattle and then quickly thereafter , its running quiet.
the reason why there is the ratchet is to prevent the tensioner from completely retreating at shut down.
there are a couple of things you could try doing :
(a) manual tensioner
(http://cog-online.org/clubportal/images/clubimages/1328/webpages/Techguide/camchaintensioner-manual5.jpg)
(b) loosening the two bolts that hold the tensioner slowly until you hear a click , and then bolting it down again (ie , sometimes the tensioner is between ratchets and thats when it makes to most noise during startup).
having said all that , once the oil pressure is up , the tension on the cam chain is all from the oil pressure acting on the tensioner. So , if you are SURE THAT ITS YOUR CAM CHAIN making your noise ( which from your recordings I don't think so ) , you may have other issues.
good luck man.
.
if you're technically inclined , the entire story is here :
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,45586.0.html
the americans typically really know their stuff
.
So, Jon, What's the news from Bmth Kawasaki?
Well nothing conclusive as yet. They checked and tightened all the headers....no change. Tightened cam tensioner manually...no change (but might be further explored to rule out completely). More likely to be reed valves according to mechanic (which I believe you suggested Burchy).
Awaiting dealer on the Isle Of Wight to make up his mind whether he wants it back there to look at the reed valves, or send back to Bournemouth Kawasaki.
If it is the reed valves ( and I stick by that) then there's nothing to do or needed to do unless you blank them off and block off the piping. Quite a common fix on the old ZRX where is was called The Octopus because of the myriad pipes Don't know how this will effect the ECU/FI, though
Ticking valves aren't causing any damage, but can get on your bits a bit
Quick update!
Bike going back to the dealer I purchased it from on the Isle of Wight sometime next week. They are going to strip the entire front end off (where the mystery noise is coming from) to get better access to the engine and listen a little more clearly. If its still not immediately obvious where the noise is coming from - first thing is re-seat headers with new seals and locking nuts. If that doesn't work, reed valves are getting replaced. If that doesn't work, timing chain and tensioner inspection and replaced if necessary. If that doesn't work, hopefully by the time they've done the above they'll figure out what is making the noise!
Put it this way, once I've taken it back to the dealer its not coming home again until the noise has gone and if they haven't figured it out within a week I'm going to insist on a full refund. Noise is getting worse on a near daily basis and no way can I put up with it every time I take it for a ride, but I'm sure its nothing drastic.
Went to Hampshire Motorcycle Centre the other day (amazing guys there). They had an 09 1400GTR with 19,000 miles - fired it up for me and sounded sublime. Mine sounds like a load of rattling nuts and bolts in comparison.
Feel free to comment :banana:
At the end of the day these bikes aren't cheap, you pays your money you expect a decent machine, good on you for sticking to your guns.
+1 ... keep the updates coming. "Sounds like a load of rattling nut and bolts" .... could be my Gs in disguise. :yes:
my water cooled gs is rattly. Works great though.
good luck with the noise.
.
Who was there previous owner on the V5? Get in touch and see if he / she had any "issues" or "repairs" :cool:
192.com
http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/publisha.content/en/search/residential/search.publisha (http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/publisha.content/en/search/residential/search.publisha)
The final update .... and not what I was hoping for....
I sent the bike to the dealer I purchased from on Monday and returned today fully expecting to pick it up. They replaced the reed valves and re-seated the exhaust headers with new gaskets and locking nuts. No change to the noise. With a heavy heart I decided to get a full refund - just 6 weeks after my initial purchase. Reading around the internet there are a lot of 1400GTR's developing the noise between 10k-15k miles. I must have been unlucky enough to develop the noise in my short ownership - trust me I was looking and listening for problems before I bought it! So, the problem is still un-resolved and unknown, just like every other similar thread I have read so far.
I am not usually picky and can put up with most things....but considering the noise was NOT there when I bought it and has been progressively getting worse, and is pretty loud at times, I was in a situation where it was not wise to stick with the bike and just grin and bear it. After all, I would never have been able to sell it with that noise in the future. I nor anyone else knew what else the problem could have been .... there is one thing for sure there is a 'problem'. I am no mechanic but I know bikes don't just start making noises like that virtually overnight without reason - something in that bike has come out of alignment, worn etc. And I know they DO NOT all do that - I have checked this, double checked, triple checked and quadruple checked with my own ears stood next to several current 1400GTR's on a variety of mileages.
The saddest fact is I know I will not find the same deal again and will therefore very unlikely to own another 1400GTR.
Sorry to hear it hasn't worked out for you. At least you got your money back which after six weeks I'm surprised as normally if you were to reject goods I would suggest you would have to do so much sooner.
Regardless, you have got your money back, don't despair, if you genuinely want another GTR, there will be one out there with your name on it.
ive been an active member on several GTR forums for several years and Ive never heard of anyone having this problem , I does sound like a terminal problem with the engine which I thing is very very rare!
Reminds me of this advert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF-KJ5-KNQk
This seems exactly like the one i picked up on sat 2010 15000 miles,i can hear it with my helmet on.
Time to take it back to the dealer :popcorn:
I will phone them tomorrow to pick it up
Quote from: Delfox on August 16, 2015, 11:20:18 PM
I will phone them tomorrow to pick it up
Sounds like a plan :punk:
Maybe its the same bike?! :oops: Definately take it back to the dealer and don't let them lay on the crap like 'oh yeh they all do that, its totally normal'. My philosophy is if it didn't come out the factory like that then don't accept it now!
Mines Blue
Phoned them today, told to take it down so i need to get a trailer or van as i said i wont ride it until its sorted.
If it is noisey reed valves like mine was it should be perfectly safe to ride.
Was yours noisy on start up then shut up after a second or two
Noisey from the second the engine starts. Reed valves will be noisey for as long as the engine is running and producing exhaust gases. No matter what load or rpm they could always be heard, even up to 20 feet or so away. But mine was particularly noisey at around 2.5 krpm, especially low speeds of ~30 mph.
Even cruising at motorway speeds with plenty of natural wind and engine noise I could hear the reed valves chattering away!
In the grand scheme of things its not a 'problem' as such. But it is highly annoying! In the end I felt I couldn't put up with the constant noise, and if I ever wanted to sell it in the future any potential buyers would run a mile! Hence why I forced it back on the dealer and insisted on a full refund.
mine sounds like the timing chain or valves must be something as not all are the same
In post#60 you said the noise was "unknown" but in #74 you are saying its the reed valves chattering. Was this the final diagnosis? Think I would have just blocked them off if that were the case
The noise was 'unknown' in the sense that it could not be diagnosed at the time with any great certainty. But after 3 mechanics at 3 seperate shops either inspected or replaced every thing else that it could have been, we (as in the dealer I bought it from, and I) decided that it was most likely the reed valves. The exhaust was reseated with new gaskets, the timing chain tensioned slightly, all the inner and outer body work checked for loose areas etc. They tried replacing the reed valves, which made the noise slightly quieter but was still present.
On hindsight I wished at the time I got the dealer to block the reed valves off as a final definitive test, but when you are wrapped up with final year exams, coursework etc and having to constantly travel back and fourth to the Isle of Wight, for me it wasn't worth the hassle.
Thanks for the update