Kawasaki 1400 GTR

Right folks this is a serious question. I'm a member of the West Yorkshire RoSPA Group and one individual within it who everybody seems to think is God has convinced those that count, i.e. the senior trainer & RoSPA themselves that to cross the solid white line with absolutely anything on the bike or any part of the rider is an absolute breach of  the Road Traffic Act and is an endorsable offence and will therefore result in a mark down on your test or a fail if the rider repeatedly straddles the solid white line to their offside with absolutely anything on their bike or any part of the rider.

What's your view on this, have a look at the below points first if needed. You only get one vote and it can't be changed so vote carefully!!

Crossing Solid White Line The actual road traffic legislation states that no vehicle shall cross or straddle but shall keep to the left of a continious white line nearest to the vehicle except where it is safe and if necessary to do so;

1/ To enter land or premises or a side road, or to pass a stationary vehicle, or owing to circumstances outside the control of the driver, or in order to avoid an accident,

or,

2/ To pass a road maintenance vehicle which is in use and moving at not more than 10mph and displaying keep right arrow signage. To pass a pedal cycle moving at not more than 10mph or to pass a horse moving at not more than 10mph.

3/ For the purpose of complying with any direction of a Constable in uniform or a Traffic Warden.

For those who have completed advanced training in any capacity, civilian or otherwise they may well be of the opinion that a solid white line to your offside is to be treat as a wall. Thats fine. Look at it practically though, a car towing a caravan with extended wing mirrors, there's a high probablity that those extended wing mirrors may well encroach into or even over the solid offside white line on occasions. Are we saying that that is an offence? RoSPA would say yes. Are we saying that a HGV on a narrow road whose mirrors periodically cross the solid whites to it's offside is guilty of an endorsable offence? Are we also saying that if a biker extends out into the centre of the road to improve their view on a left hand bend and their offside pannier overlaps ever so slightly the solid white line that they are likely to receive an endorsable ticket?

So I'm not talking about if the vehicle is overtaking anything in the above circumstances, just during general riding or driving.

Steve ... this is exactly why I am not keen on some of these so called "examiners" or "Instructors" or "assessors" who , not all I have to say, appear to be very anal about their "jobs".

I thought that The Road Traffic Act had been amended so that you could specifically overtake slow moving vehicles on a DWL system without penalty. Perhaps I am mistaken.

I see no problem whatsoever with anyone having a bit of double white line whatever the circumstances, so long AS IT IS SAFE ... you could argue the toss all day, and I know some will, but there has to be a certain degree of common sense applied to whatever you are doing at the time and that's how I apply my discretion to anyone that I deal with. In my book you have to drive or ride like a complete c*** to get a ticket, which of course would be well deserved.

We are all grown ups and we all know what we are supposed to be doing and further more we know what is acceptable and what is not.

I did discuss this a bit with a couple at the Lower Lode Inn and everyone seems to be of the opinion that RoSPA are talking out of their arse.

Not being an advanced rider and all that, my opinion is that your RoSPA geezer is talking a load of bollocks

Talk about being anal - I think some people need to get a life  :undecided: :undecided:

One of the primary purposes of solid white lines to tell drivers there is not enoughvisibility for vehicles to overtake safely ie you are on a potentially dangerous bit of road. If gets to the point where people start arguing about which part of the bike ie pannier, a mirror or wheels means you have crossed or straddled the white line and therefore breaking the law - sorry but they really do need to get a life.

There is the definition/interpretation of the law by the Police and the Courts - if the wheels cross the white line then that is a clear breach.
If your panniers/mirrors are above/over the while line then you have increased risks to yourself and others. Is it breaking the law, I have no idea and I am not going to worry about that aspect - I would be asking my associate or any rider "is the benefit of being in that position worth the increased in risk????" 

It's not as though you can do anything apart from sit their and follow the vehicle in front and if you do have a clear road ahead with no traffic in front of you I would still ask the question is the benefit worth the increased risk???

Don't forget even if the solid white line is on the opposite side of the road it still means that the visibility on your side of the road is also reduced but not enough to trigger a solid white line.

Steve

my shadow sometimes crosses the line , does that count

Quote from: viper on July 29, 2012, 09:57:27 PM
my shadow sometimes crosses the line , does that count

:mfr_lol: :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol:  I like that.. :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol:

Doesn't the law also state that you can cross a solid white line in order to overtake a slow moving vehicle, I seem to recall that 10mph was mentioned

Isn't it there to stop cars overtaking other cars...

which means that you can 'Do the B'stard' on the way into the corner, on the brakes, without worrying that some knob in a Kia is gonna try and overtake another knob in a Ford...

:gunsmilie:

 :mfr_lol: Mogs

Is there something about Kia's and esp Ford's that you dont like?  :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol:

just my opinion but surely your only in breach of the RTA if you cross the solid line with a wheel, not if parts of your car bike truck etc has a component hanging over the line. Just because it "looks" like a part of vehicle is over the line doesn't mean it is, that is surely dependant on which angle you are viewing it from. a wheel over the line is not open to debate it either is or isn't over the line. Common sense?

I cross them regularly.
They are designed for cars/trucks.
All too often no overtaking zones fail to take into account the acceleration/braking a modern car can do, let alone a motorcycle.
The bloody nanny state is trying to keep you safe from yourself and all the other idiots,... err sorry I meant Citizens out there.
If I feel it is safe and prudent to do so, I cross them.

I'm no fan of the "wheel shufflers" but I can see where some riders could gain enormously from their training.
I could almost certainly gain from their training, but I can't stand the mentality of so many of their instructors.
Just cos it says RoSPA on your dayglo jacket doesn't mean you are the "Oracle" of all things about motorcycling.

The last one I did (apart from my safety awareness course) was a Police training session and I enjoyed it tremendously.
I think the cop who did my 1-on-1 did too as I didn't hang about.  :punk:

Quote from: Boomer on July 30, 2012, 03:13:49 PM
I cross them regularly.
They are designed for cars/trucks.

I don't think your local magistrate would see it that way  :wink:. In the real world panniers,mirrors etc do not even come in to it , where the RoSPA instructor got his ideas from god only knows. However, crossing a soild white outside of the exemptions mentioned in the OP is an absolute offence in the eyes of a magistrate.

Quote from: viper on July 29, 2012, 09:57:27 PM
my shadow sometimes crosses the line , does that count

RoSPA would probably have you for that too.  :mfr_lol:

Please make sure you all vote, these stats are going to get fed back to the bleeders at RoSPA head office.  :help:

Quote from: Boomer on July 30, 2012, 03:13:49 PM
I cross them regularly.
They are designed for cars/trucks.
All too often no overtaking zones fail to take into account the acceleration/braking a modern car can do, let alone a motorcycle.

So you are one of the total idiots who gives the rest of us a bad name

Quote from: routemaster on July 30, 2012, 07:47:38 PM
So you are one of the total idiots who gives the rest of us a bad name

Nah thats my job.....  :gunsmilie:

Quote from: Mogster on July 30, 2012, 02:27:16 PM
Isn't it there to stop cars overtaking other cars...

which means that you can 'Do the B'stard' on the way into the corner, on the brakes, without worrying that some knob in a Kia is gonna try and overtake another knob in a Ford...

:gunsmilie:

I have a knob and I also drive a Ford. My wife does not have a knob and drives a Ford. We both like bikes and my knob. God where is this going and who has had a humour bypass. I'm with Mogster but I have not seen or want to see his knob or Ford but do like the looks of his Tuono.

Question needs a none of the above option.
Don't do it on right hand bends on A roads.

Quote from: ChrisB on July 30, 2012, 10:30:21 PM
I have a knob and I also drive a Ford. My wife does not have a knob and drives a Ford. We both like bikes and my knob. God where is this going and who has had a humour bypass. I'm with Mogster but I have not seen or want to see his knob or Ford but do like the looks of his Tuono.

:mfr_lol: Apolgise if i offend.. Chirs, I just picked a couple of makes at random... mind you there are certain cars that see to attract Mr Magoo... Kia Ceed, Honda Jazz  :gun_bandana: and my personal nemisis the Nissan Micra..... cars which can usually be found lotteing on the racing line  :mfr_lol:

ROSPA are losing the plot! On all my driving courses I've only had to buy the cakes if my wheels straddled the solid white line.

I've been in email discussion over the last few weeks with a Senior trainer from RoSPA & when they eventually respond to my emails they give the typical political answer which skirts around the actual questions asked of them and just accuse me of being offensive and yet confirm that I'm not the only person recently who has raised serious concerns regarding the consistency of what the examiner is looking for. They also say that they have neither the time or the inclination to enter into a session of E mail ping pong with me or anyone else, how  :censored:  rude is that.
So they'll take your money and teach you techniques which are not what the examiner will be looking for. The examiner will then subsequently mark you down and its just tough shit, you have to accept it.
Can you lodge formal complaints against RoSPA?

The best form of formally complaining is to vote with your feet.  :yes:

I contacted RoSPA by e-mail months ago (previous post refers) about training for myself, I had a prompt and polite response suggesting I contact their training centre in Liverpool which was the closest to me at a mere 100 miles away. I contacted the agent at liverpool twice and heard nothing, no acknoledgement and no reply....so for me they can get stuffed.

What's the betting that they will be the next biking related establishment to go the HG way ???  QED.

Quote from: Lonewolf on August 01, 2012, 12:05:53 AM
I've been in email discussion over the last few weeks with a Senior trainer from RoSPA & when they eventually respond to my emails they give the typical political answer which skirts around the actual questions asked of them and just accuse me of being offensive and yet confirm that I'm not the only person recently who has raised serious concerns regarding the consistency of what the examiner is looking for. They also say that they have neither the time or the inclination to enter into a session of E mail ping pong with me or anyone else, how  :censored:  rude is that.
So they'll take your money and teach you techniques which are not what the examiner will be looking for. The examiner will then subsequently mark you down and its just tough shit, you have to accept it.
Can you lodge formal complaints against RoSPA?

RoSPA do not take your money in exchange for training. You pay to join a local group and the training is given by volunteer tutors. You pay Rospa for the test and then the yearly membership fee paid to Rospa funds the 3 yearly re-test.

My experience as a tutor is that the examiner's do move the goalposts and there is no formal mechanism for Rospa to communicate such goalpost moves to the local groups and it can only be when people are marked down that the changes become known about.

As far as I know is possible to have a test result reviewed by the chief examiner.

P

Rospa-IAM  :shaun: Bah humbug You would be far better off, and learn lots more by using the new for 2012 Follow the pink armbands method. It's dead easy ya just turn up, climb on yer bike, go out and enjoy yourself. You will find that by using this method, that you will enjoy lots of lovely countryside, enjoy your bike to the full, and totally relax whilst having lots of fun. And no need to worry about some bloke who is following you, who may be a worse rider than yourself slagging you off because you were 3 inches nearer the kerb than he thought you should have been. The best way to learn how to ride a motorcycle well, is to keep riding a motorcycle. Practice makes perfect. Being out there and putting the miles in is the only way. Oh by the way the follow the pink armbands method is totally free. Turn up, ride, enjoy, simple eh? :smiley:

I can vouch for the above, I learnt more about my bike in one day following those pink armbands than I had since I purchased it 11 months ago, the roads and progress we made during one day in the dales was perfect training to ride motorcycles.

I shall be up there again for another lesson before I know it.

Alan

Quote from: BigAlan on August 01, 2012, 10:17:05 PM
I can vouch for the above, I learnt more about my bike in one day following those pink armbands than I had since I purchased it 11 months ago, the roads and progress we made during one day in the dales was perfect training to ride motorcycles.

I shall be up there again for another lesson before I know it.

Alan

Told ya riding with Geoff is an experience. I shall never forget that first ride following the pink armbands. That's what I call making good progress

Alan, make sure that you bring your pals with you, they made it into an epic day :banana: .Great bunch of blokes :yes: . And do you know I think that they quite enjoyed the pink armband method :smiley:.

id really like to do an advanced training course but i'm getting more and more put off by the bad press about egotistical dictators using your training needs as an excuse to show off/ abuse / ect your good nature. When i did my direct access course on my first day the guy doing my training within 10 minutes started shouting at me sargeant major style in front of everyone else, I didnt react and he soon started on someone else. I had a quiet word with him after one young lad never came back after lunch and he left me alone , shameful really.

Steve,  you know my opinion about this matter. I have taken up the issue with RoSPA HQ and due to the way the question was worded by 'someone' from the WY group the cheif examiner was pushed into a corner.  IMO he should look at all aspects and reconsider.

I understand the topic was raised due to a WY examiner applying this 'rule'.

FWIW as an examiner myself I agree with your assessment - the law, therefore the 'rule' states a vehicle shouldn't straddle or cross the solid white line.  Straddle, by my reckoning means you need more than one wheel, i.e. a car/van etc. The crossing refers to motorcycles as they can't straddle!

To cross the white line with any other part of vehicle / rider etc may be poor positioning in the face of oncoming traffic, however this would be a different issue and would likely result in a fail or reduced grading.  To be in a position to see the crossing of a pannier / elbow over the white line would mean the examiner would have to be in the same position to gain a view of the crossing - therefore 'committing' the 'offence' too!

I have taken it up with the Regional Senior Examiner well as South Yorks and Humberside police bike instructors who also agree.

Good luck taking on the HQ - If you are tested in our area by me it would be a more pragmatic approach with ALL factors considered.

Just a thought....

If you are going round a left hand bend and your tyres are near the white centre line then you would be leaning to the left. So thinking about the laws of physics, no part would be over the line.  :mfr_lol:

Forgive me if I am having a blonde moment but it seems a little obvious  :mfr_lol:

On a straight road I dont see any reason to sit near the line.  :grin: Better to be 2 minutes late than 2 minutes early in the next life.  :grin:

Have I lost the plot and gone right off what the subject is about?  :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol:

Debs, that is precisely the argument I have used.  Positioned to the centre line on approach to left hand bend would be where I would expect a rider to be to get the best and earliest view into the bend.  As you turn in everything comes away from the line due to the physics!

Exactly Winston..

I did my bikesafe course and thats what the Police told me... Get right over to the line to see round the bend. It also gives on coming traffic more time to see you.. so its a win win situation.  :grin:

Debs that is an extremely good illustration of what this is all about. However even being that close if your elbow should marginally overlap the solid white line to your offside thats a no no apparantly.

On the other hand on a straight section of road with no opposing traffic but a line of constant traffic in front of you, it may be appropriate to move out to the centre of the road to open up your view and to make yourself more visible to vehicles immediately in front of you. This being the case if a solid white existed to your offside then it is probable/possible that your pannier, mirror or elbow could encroach over the solid white line. WY group of RoSPA would mark you down and subsequently fail you if you did not cease this practice with great haste!

Chris, good to have you back by the way.  :biker3:

Cheers Steve.  He is talking out of his arse as is the examiner.

Sanctimonious is the most appropriate word without swearing.........

Chris next time we meet up I'll fetch along my debrief report from the test I did for you to have a look at. I had another ride with my trainer last week, he totally disagreed with my test result and reckons I've been screwed over. I talked through some scenarios with him of what I did on the test and he confirmed he would have dealt with the hazards exactly as I did.
I've had some emails from Mike (you know who) and he confirms that I am not the only person very recently who has raised serious concerns regarding the consistency of the training and what the examiner is looking for.

Quote from: Kwikasfuki on August 01, 2012, 10:35:07 PM
I shall never forget that first ride following the pink armbands.

Whats this 'Pink Armbands' thingy? Never heard of it before  :grin:

Can I say at theis point....FFS! lighten up, stop trying to see who sits the up straight the best... get on your bike and have some fun!!!

If you're spending time worrying about all this Rospa crap you'll gonna make mistakes... and end up in a Hedge!  :nono:

You need to add 'up my own arse arrogance' to that motto as well.

I think you must be from the follow the pink armbands school of motorcycling, Mogs :banana: :banana: :banana: :clap: :clap:

Quote from: 100milesaway on August 02, 2012, 07:29:38 AM
I think you must be from the follow the pink armbands school of motorcycling, Mogs :banana: :banana: :banana: :clap: :clap:

I'd wear 'Hot Pink' leathers if it made me a safer and faster rider   :gunsmilie: :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol:

Pink armband and a few brews is my chosen method....good craic too  :mfr_lol:

Sorry Mogs - disagree with you.  All each to their own.

I've scraped too many up who 'knew better' in my previous life and anything that helps individuals do as your 'poster' says can only help.

Not for everyone I know, but for those who want to what's the problem.

And as for having 'fun' and 'getting out there' most advanced riders I know (and there are the beardy wierdy, sanctimonious, up their own arse brigade whose image stops a lot trying it) have a bloody good time and the advanced method helps them do so by seeing further ahead and riding to a higher standard.  I know you raced, you maybe have a 'natural' talent and are graced by good advanced observations with 'no' need to be shown anything else.  Most riders will always benefit.

Unfortunately consistency issues like these don't help those involved which is what the question was originally.

The white line issue is a real hang up with advanced riders, it attracts 3 points (whether you agree or not George) and a £60.00 reminder.

IMO the authorities have chosen white line painting as a cheap engineering resolution instead of looking for better methods and some great roads have been buggered up by them. Combined with 40 & 50 mph indiscriminate speed limits on rural roads, the country is getting shite for riding.

I suppose if eveyone rode to advanced standards at speeds appropriate for the circumstances (and didn't crash by overestimating their abilities) there would be no need for paint/speed limits/GATSO's etc.

Quote from: deb3km on August 02, 2012, 01:25:53 AM
Whats this 'Pink Armbands' thingy? Never heard of it before  :grin:

Debs, see picture below.

(http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n326/oldeconey/bigalanoxfordboys002.jpg)

Mogs, that picture you put on, I'm sure the riders bars must be over the solid white.   :whistling:

:mfr_lol:

I don't disagree that Observation training has its place, but there is too much emphasis put on 'Road positioning' and not enough on the art of motorcycle control.

A hell of a lot of riders are but passengers when they get on a bike and sit on it like a sack of spuds... they have no idea what they are doing apart from the basics, countersteer, weighting pegs, late apexe's, transfer of body weight and trail braking are something that Moto GP riders do as far as they are concerned, they never actually go out and practice their skills.

I have had a Bike safe course and after we got back, the Instructer asked me how the hell do i get round bends like i do... now this bloke was a fully paid up member of the safe riding dayglow jacket crew and had been riding for many years..... I explained to him about 'Chasing the vanishing point' ... something that he had heard of but never understood ... we chatted for ages and then I went out with him and taught him some of my road craft... He's got a Blade now and we still go out fer a hoon along the Thaxted road even now, after 10 years... and I can tell you he's a quick and safe rider now, and looks far more relaxed.

I'm not advocating that we should all get sports bike and tear up the road.... something btw i don't often do, cos any arse can go fast in a straight line.... but how about spending the day practising cornering, or do a trackday, yes I have seen GTRs at the track, their owners grinning like a 6 year old at Christmas....

Riding a Motorcycle is a life long journey of discovery and learning.... and as such you should never stop exploring, whether it's Foriegn climbs or your own abilitys..... I don't know it all .... far from it... but I'm determined to have a darn good go at learning as much as i can.

Mogs

I am gob-smacked Mogs!

Chasing the vanishing point is one of the main elements of road craft and is one of the very basiscs that any advanced rider should know.  Christ, that dictates position, speed, gear and acceleration.

With no knowledge of that the rider would be as you described a sack of spud passenger on the bike.

I coordinated BikeSafe in our area for some years, but I have doubts about it's effectiveness due to instances as you describe and who turns up for them generally.  Usually the once a year RoSPA / IAM for their MOT and to be told how good they still are!

Quote from: Winston Smith on August 02, 2012, 09:31:01 AM


Chasing the vanishing point is one of the main elements of road craft and is one of the very basiscs that any advanced rider should know.  Christ, that dictates position, speed, gear and acceleration.

Yup for sure... but i am constatly amazed buy the staggering amount of riders that go  :huh: when you mention it.....

Rather too many times, when i have been out on the Twistys, have i come across a trail of plastics ending in 12k worth of scrap and i look at the where the road goes and think 'How the Fook did you manage to crash there!!!'

TBH... i do know... I hear riders talking about 'near misses' all the time... In to a bend a tad too fast... panic!!!.... pick it up... target fixate on the nearest immovable object ...and .... Crash!!... easy really.. takes no skill at all.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Gonome on August 02, 2012, 09:04:33 AM
Debs, see picture below.

(http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n326/oldeconey/bigalanoxfordboys002.jpg)

But whats it all about? Why the 'Pink' armbands?

Quote from: Mogster on August 02, 2012, 10:17:33 AM


Rather too many times, when i have been out on the Twistys, have i come across a trail of plastics ending in 12k worth of scrap and i look at the where the road goes and think 'How the Fook did you manage to crash there!!!'

TBH... i do know... I hear riders talking about 'near misses' all the time... In to a bend a tad too fast... panic!!!.... pick it up... target fixate on the nearest immovable object ...and .... Crash!!... easy really.. takes no skill at all.  :rolleyes:

You hit the nail on the head when you mention target fixation

far too many riders are looking at where they are rather than where they need/want to be

The classsic test for this is as follows....when riding along if you see a small stone, fag packet, damp patch or some other item in the road  look at it, and...... you will ride over it  :yes:....conversely look past it or beyond it at a fixed pont and generally you will find yourself at that point, having missed said object.

Now, apply that to a vanishing point of a corner...voila... safer/better riding  :yes:

Sorry if my take and explanation is a bit basic.

Quote from: deb3km on August 02, 2012, 10:36:22 AM
But whats it all about? Why the 'Pink' armbands?

Geoff its time you "came out"  :mfr_lol:

Quote from: Mogster on July 30, 2012, 08:07:31 PM
Nah thats my job.....  :gunsmilie:

And mine.  :hammer:

Sorry Routemaster, but we all break several laws pretty much every day.
I personally will do so on a road I know well, where I know there are no other threats, where visibility is good and where I feel safe doing so. I don't just obey blindly because some health&safety Nazi has declared it so.
And yes, if I get caught I 'fess up and take my beating like a man.

When was the last time you went over the speed limit?
That's just as bad, as is filtering too fast, phoning/texting whilst driving, fiddling with the SatNav, shouting at the kids, etc.

Quote from: Mogster link=topic=1966.msg25813#msg25813 date=1343717 :mfr_lol:083
:mfr_lol: Apolgise if i offend.. Chirs, I just picked a couple of makes at random... mind you there are certain cars that see to attract Mr Magoo... Kia Ceed, Honda Jazz  :gun_bandana: and my personal nemisis the Nissan Micra..... cars which can usually be found lotteing on the racing line  :mfr_lol:

There you go again! My son has a Micra and is also pretty handy on his SV650 and works for Ferrari, my daughter has a Micra and she doesn't like bikes at all! Oh well, can't win them all.

:mfr_lol: :mfr_lol:

Quote from: Boomer on August 02, 2012, 05:29:49 PM
, phoning/texting whilst driving, fiddling with the SatNav, shouting at the kids, etc.

now those offences should be punishable by removing said twit from his or her car and giving them a right good tasering by the side of the road.... till they poo themselves preferably.... :hammer:

Quote from: Mogster on August 02, 2012, 07:32:46 PM
now those offences should be punishable by removing said twit from his or her car and giving them a right good tasering by the side of the road.... till they poo themselves preferably.... :hammer:

A couple of years ago I pulled up alongside a Range Rover that had seriously cut me up and scared me as he swerved last minute to leave the M60. I knocked on his window to give him an earful, and he wound it down and told me to F off I'm on the phone. Well I may be old but I'm quick (sometimes). Grabbed the mobile out of his hand and hurled it over the grass verge. Rode off wetting myself, feeling quite pleased.  :grin:

Quote from: ChrisB on August 02, 2012, 07:45:04 PM
A couple of years ago I pulled up alongside a Range Rover that had seriously cut me up and scared me as he swerved last minute to leave the M60. I knocked on his window to give him an earful, and he wound it down and told me to F off I'm on the phone. Well I may be old but I'm quick (sometimes). Grabbed the mobile out of his hand and hurled it over the grass verge. Rode off wetting myself, feeling quite pleased.  :grin:

Probably not the most PC approach but I'm sure it was very effective  :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol: :mfr_lol:

Quote from: olde coney on August 02, 2012, 10:37:30 AM
Geoff its time you "came out"  :mfr_lol:

Shut up Rog, I'm lovin this :smiley:  :mfr_lol: