Such a pity...

[alibx11]

 
It's ironic that the post entitled Tolerance has been deleted for being racist...

Such a pity that the rants of one radical are taken so seriously and a thread that I believe was posted in humor has been deemed racist and deleted.

I don't know Deb's but having read a lot of her posts since I have been on here I would not consider her a racist, or indeed anybody who saw the funny side of the post, nor would I consider myself one, although I reserve the right to become one at any time and place of my own choosing. Freewill you see..

But for the rants of one who linked the post to EDL, UKIP, and some other ( i assume ) right wing British something that I had never heard of, and claiming that to allow the free speech and free will to post and even find humorous the body of the post will be the downfall of humanity.... catch a grip.

I would have hoped the "moderator" would have taken the post in the context I believe it was intended but alas no.. as per coming the norm in this country, those who choose to take offence and rant about it the loudest are the one's who get their way.

It was not a call to arms, or a racial propaganda post to instill hatred and heighten tensions but hey ho... Wolf knows best.

I think with that I will say Adios... Would whatever moderator is on duty please remove me from the member list, time to move on.

Keep the shiney side up folks.

[100milesaway]

So that's it then, no more light humour aimed at certain individuals.   "Have you heard the one about the Englishman Scotsman and the Irishman"     sorry cant do that  .                  No more taking the p--- out of folk from "up north" or for that matter "southern softies".  .    No more having a giggle about people riding around with a camera stuck on top of their bonce.  .   When you pull the plug on things like Debs post, which I have no doubt whatsoever was just meant as a bit of light hearted p--- taking!!!!!! where does it stop:?.           Lots of people have a titter at Debs post,    yet one person makes a fuss, and the piece is chopped    .            As our friend Alibx11 says,    "time to move on indeed".      .

[viper]

I also found the post unacceptable . something you all may overlooked is the religion of the guy who owns this site , im not 100% sure but he may be a muslim . If you had of sent that post to your work collegues via email , many companys would have dismissed you.

I support the removal of the thread .

[BigAlan]

As someone who works for a major employer in Oxford and who deals with every religion, race, creed and colour of people on a daily basis I did not find the original posting offensive and in fact showed it to a work colleague who is a Muslim after it became an issue and she (yes she) said we all had to live together, and if any religious building was to be accepted it had to integrate totally.

That was good enough for me.

I was disappointed it was removed, freedom to speak as we find is a basic (at the moment) right, freedom of the press to report information as they see it has been tested in court and found to be in the public interest, I hope this never changes, and as I say I didn't find the original posting offensive.

But the world we live in differs every day, let's hope we can all get on as we should.

I will remain a member of this forum as I ride a GTR and like to chat and fine out stuff, if I change my bike then I suspect I will join whatever forum deals with that bike, that's life as Esther used to say.

Carry on campers.

[Stephen.Stallebrass]

I wondered how long it would be before the whiners came out. I was going to let it go but you've pulled me back in.

To set the record straight I didn't ask for it to be taken down and I'm sure the Wolf will verify this. Indeed, the Wolf deleted the post and all comments of his own volition but I respect his decision to do so - I agree with it. The post was not a welcoming one, it's content in any context was divisive and demeaning. No-one is accusing Debs or anyone else of being racist but the text of that quote was demonstrably racist, if you can't see that you're deluded. And if challenging that text makes me a radical then firstly you don't know the definition of radical is and secondly, oh wait, I don't give a damn.

I did not link to UKIP or the EDL, I linked to a blog post that criticized the EDL protest. I linked to a Fox website that had a video and transcript demonstrating the nefarious origins and provenance of the quote in question so that anyone could fact check my claims - this was made clear to all that read the post. It's called showing your sources, it's what rational people do to persuade others of the validity of their claims. Let me be clear, I was opposed to the text and I am opposed to the hate groups using it for propaganda purposes (I'm not referring to Debs). I was exposing it's ignorance and bigotry not supporting it, I think that should be obvious. The the fact that you're now trying to suggest I linked to these sources as if I was in any way advocating their message is incredibly absurd and shows me that your reading comprehension is very poor (FAIL), that you didn't bother check them yourself (FAIL) and that you're now being deliberately disingenuous (FAIL). This is the tell tale sign of someone that has no counter argument or is unwilling or incapable of defending their own position.

I've said it already but I'll say it again just for you: I support free speech, even for douche bags (and no, I'm not referring to you personally). I am not in the 'but' brigade (NB: "Yes, free speech... but"). And I hate to say it but the removal of the post does not constitute a breech of anyone's free expression and whining about it in a separate post doesn't change that fact. I don't know why you keep banging on about freewill it's completely irrelevant.

Again, I'm not and never was offended by it and suggesting that I was even after I've clearly stated that I wasn't is a blatant strawman (FAIL). BTW it's a web forum, the medium here is text, my post was as loud as yours; mine were perhaps a little more factual and better referenced. BTW we all have a right to be offended, we don't have a right not to be offended. I wouldn't blame any person, Muslim or otherwise, to have been offended by that post, it WAS offensive. And that is why it was taken down.

I suspect there's still plenty of scope for humor but that quoted text wasn't humorous for the people it was mocking and baiting, please just try putting yourself in those shoes, even for a moment. Would you want to join a forum that treated you this way? It's a false analogy to simply compare it to "folk from up north" or "southern softies" banter. For those of you that think it's just a bit of a laugh I urge you to please try and escape from your own bubble just for a moment and try to see it from the perspective of those who are the butt of this 'humor'. Please just have some empathy and compassion.

The text was a deliberate attempt by its authors (not Debs posting of it, I'm sure she thought it was just a harmless bit of fun) to whip up division. It was not said originally or thereafter plagiarized by various hate groups out of innocence, naivety or just a bit of fun but as intentional hatred. It was meant to operate in our subconscious, whether we choose to accept it or not, to cultivate our prejudices, prod at our thoughts and inform our discriminatory actions. I mean just think about it for a second, let the idea explode in your head: it denigrates people whilst simultaneously telling them to fit in. The fact that Debs innocently, albeit unthinkingly, shared it in a post is not the issue and pretending otherwise is a distraction tactic to completely ignore the facts.

It's heartbreaking that in our society anyone could still hold in reverence views that would marginalize and exclude others, it's like they have no knowledge of history. It's not wrong to discuss controversial topics but it should be done in an honest and fair way and be based on facts not fear. We should not let manifestly racist hate groups control the framing of a debate and we should not let the casual racism that many us are guilty of, even without our knowledge, to be so casually brushed aside and justified as one of nostalgia of a bygone fantasy.

By deleting that post I feel that the Wolf has further fostered an identity of unity based on an openness to diversity. If people choose to leave then that's their choice, there's no need, I personally want you to stay, but perhaps not having you will, in many ways, bring us closer together. At the very least it might stimulate greater diversity.

Sorry for the long post I didn't have time to write a shorter one.

[O.C.]

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, and NO it's not this olde timer wading in to this situation.

I don't need an overly lengthy missive to make my point ..which is this.

I have known Debs for much longer than most of you on here, in fact Debs was a member of the previous GTR forum which was run by Max ~ I was an administrator and moderator of that forum and that was back in 2008/9.

I'm certain that Debs meant no offence in fact I'm confident enough to say that she didn't originate the post or its contents, as I seem to think I have seen it before, or at least something very similar. My guess is that Debs copied and pasted it to this forum.

Debs' post did not offend me in any way, as, I believe that we should all try to be more tolerant and try to laugh a little more at/with each other.

I do not support the removal of the thread in question, I was not offended by it, nor do I think Asif was either, who I have also known since the early days and previous forum.

Steve, I reckon you have over reacted and overstepped a necessary mark on freedom of speech and expression of opinion, just like you did when you grilled me over the use of the expression "leaving a darkie on the road"....you were clearly wrong then my friend just as I believe you are again on this occasion.

It's important to be aware of how may members actually regularly contribute to this forum I haven't done the statistics but I think it may be a diminishing number.

I wonder why   

[PCPeteUK]

didn't see it, can't comment on it - but do wonder what I missed :)
I ride my bike, anyone with 2 wheels is a friend what ever they ride - I like this forum, everyone lends assistance here if asked without any prejudice (a little light humour occasionally perhaps) and I never play politics (another reason I like this forum) and will continue to do so - never had any issues with anyone here, whether moderator or not and on a personal comment - Debs is one of the best people I have met through this or other forums - I'm sure that whatever she posted may have been done with the best of intentions to gather a laugh and not to offend but we all make mistakes in judgement every now and again, Can we not just draw a line under whatever it was and go back to being the group we once were?

Rant over, soap box broken up for firewood and I'll go sit in my corner again.....

[Stephen.Stallebrass]

I'm certain that Debs meant no offence... in fact I'm confident enough to say that she didn't originate the post or its contents, as I seem to think I have seen it before, or at least something very similar. My guess is that Debs copied and pasted it to this forum...

...Steve, I reckon you have over reacted and overstepped a necessary mark on freedom of speech and expression of opinion, just like you did when you grilled me over the use of the expression "leaving a darkie on the road"....you were clearly wrong then my friend just as I believe you are again on this occasion.

Correct and agreed. I'm sure Debs meant not offence, I'm sure you're not alone in not finding it offensive that doesn't mean that it wasn't offensive. I very clearly laid it all out in my post but as it's gone and people couldn't just let it go I'll lay it out again for your benefit and for those coming in late. So let me try to state the case as succinctly as I can. Debs was not the original author of the text she got it from a Facebook friend. She copied and pasted it here with quotations. No one is claiming she was the original author of the text. It's origins are falsely attributed to a Canadian sports host. But the true origins were from a Fox news interview about the 911 Ground Zero Mosque in 2010. It was edited and re-used in right wing circles before becoming a chain-hate-mail on Facebook, which is how Debs came across it and why you've probably seen it before. As I've said, I'm sure she meant no harm, but but that doesn't invalidate my assertions about it. It is damaging to the forum as a whole and removing the post does not in my opinion infringe on anybodies free expression. I'm positive Debs was not aware of it's origins. In fact she never said she agreed with any of it. She presumably thought it was 'just a bit of fun'.

Overreacted and overstepped is your view, I obviously don't agree. One of us has provided reasons the other hasn't. Simply declaring Steve wrong without any justification doesn't make him wrong, however it is akin to putting your fingers in your ears and shouting. I'll dismiss your comment without reasons just as you've dismissed mine. As for the "darkie" remark, didn't you make an unreserved apology for this and state that "the truth is that it really had not occurred to [you] that the expression could or would be construed in any other way [than racist]..." and then go on to acknowledge that it could have offended people. Doesn't this imply that you are in fact wrong and you know it now even if you didn't then? Isn't the terminology and context in this anti-Muslim example much less ambiguous than your use of "darkie'? Regardless, as PCPeteUK has said, despite our disagreements anyone on 2 wheels is a friend of mine and I will lend assistance to anyone one of you without prejudice, even if we vehemently disagree. I hope you would do the same. I do however, like to discuss controversial topics, nothing is more important. Debs is great in my experience too. I have nothing against her personally. I have helped her out in the past without asking for any recompense.

I was hoping we could draw a line under it as well.

Edit: I said Rusty when I meant to say PCPeteUK.

[Winston Smith]

Roger, I totally agree with you.

Stephen - I truly believe you have gone off the deep end and caused most this escalation.

Maybe this marks the death knell of this forum.  I am quite friendly with Steve (Wolf) but I don't agree with pulling the post.  Locking it may have been a more appropriate solution. 

We are so touchy/feely/sensitive around religious crap instead of laughing at it and moving on.

I will continue to view this forum but I don't think I will be posting much/anything for fear of offending in future.

[Kwikasfuki]

didn't see it, can't comment on it - but do wonder what I missed :)

I've not seen it either but I am wondering what I have missed

Everyone is entitled to their view, and as the regards to the thread being deleted on the forum, I fully support the wolf in his decision.

As for the other points being raised about members wanting to leave or not post etc, I'd rather you didn't, but it's your decision. As for the point about dwindling numbers - as long as people find the site useful, it will always be available in some capacity even if it runs at a loss.

[Stephen.Stallebrass]

Stephen - I truly believe you have gone off the deep end and caused most this escalation.

We are so touchy/feely/sensitive around religious crap instead of laughing at it and moving on.

Well I truly believe I'll have £1,000,000 waiting for me in a suitcase when I go to work 2mora but that doesn't make it true!

Oh wait, I disagreed and voiced my opinion, does that mean it's my fault? If only I wasn't so 'touchy' or overly 'sensitive'. Why couldn't I just laugh it off? It was just a bit of fun right? If only I'd have just asserted it was wrong and claimed things without backing them up with anything, perhaps people would agree with me? I should never have taken the time to make a clear and carefully worded argument to convince people why I thought they might be wrong. Oh and another thing I've just realised, I shouldn't have provided links for people to check, it's such an arduous task to click a link. Perhaps I shouldn't expect people to be so reasonable or skeptical. From now on I'll try to base everything on the first thing that comes into my head without any critical thought whatsoever. My experience is exactly the same as everyone else right? I'm sure if I just parrot the same old tired and debunked arguments and fallacious reasoning they'll just accept what I say. Yeah, that's the thing to do.

You're right. I was wrong. You have persuaded me. It was all just a great big laugh wasn't it. There's no way that would offend people. There's no way that would put people off joining the forum or make those already here feel excluded. I'm so embarrassingly wrong that you can have the final word if you like. I've realised reading comments before making my own is usually very productive and is never a waste of time. I look so smart going over the same ground over and over again. Maybe you should take the last word and end the discussion with something so insightful and witty that I cannot comprehend it's brilliance. That'll sort it out once and for all because I don't want to cause any more bother and escalate the matter, the sky might fall in or I might have to runaway and leave the country. I realise now, big thanks, that I started this fire and I don't want to continue to keep stoking it. Here take this fire extinguisher before I make things worse by saying something reasonable that I've already said.



This is still a motorbike forum isn't it?

[O.C.]

Well I truly believe I'll have £1,000,000 waiting for me in a suitcase when I go to work 2mora but that doesn't make it true!

Oh wait, I disagreed and voiced my opinion, does that mean it's my fault? If only I wasn't so 'touchy' or overly 'sensitive'. Why couldn't I just laugh it off? It was just a bit of fun right? If only I'd have just asserted it was wrong and claimed things without backing them up with anything, perhaps people would agree with me? I should never have taken the time to make a clear and carefully worded argument to convince people why I thought they might be wrong. Oh and another thing I've just realised, I shouldn't have provided links for people to check, it's such an arduous task to click a link. Perhaps I shouldn't expect people to be so reasonable or skeptical. From now on I'll try to base everything on the first thing that comes into my head without any critical thought whatsoever. My experience is exactly the same as everyone else right? I'm sure if I just parrot the same old tired and debunked arguments and fallacious reasoning they'll just accept what I say. Yeah, that's the thing to do.

You're right. I was wrong. You have persuaded me. It was all just a great big laugh wasn't it. There's no way that would offend people. There's no way that would put people off joining the forum or make those already here feel excluded. I'm so embarrassingly wrong that you can have the final word if you like. I've realised reading comments before making my own is usually very productive and is never a waste of time. I look so smart going over the same ground over and over again. Maybe you should take the last word and end the discussion with something so insightful and witty that I cannot comprehend it's brilliance. That'll sort it out once and for all because I don't want to cause any more bother and escalate the matter, the sky might fall in or I might have to runaway and leave the country. I realise now, big thanks, that I started this fire and I don't want to continue to keep stoking it. Here take this fire extinguisher before I make things worse by saying something reasonable that I've already said.



This is still a motorbike forum isn't it?

Lighten up fella, it's becoming apparent that you're losing the plot, I suggest that you, or someone else moderates your posts before you really personally offend someone. You are already on the way to offending me .


Talk about using one word when ten will do FFS    

[BigAlan]

It's all bollocks.

Well that's what we say down here anyways. 

Alan

[pross]

It's all bollocks.

Well that's what we say down here anyways. 


Alan

I agree also

I find that offensive against women 

[BigAlan]

I agree also

I find that offensive against women 

Don't you  start or we will all be in the poo.



Alan